Okey enough of self-soothing Iran-talk. A real crisis is boiling in the Middle East. The Iraq model is being replicated in Lebanon. The Zionists are cheering on while the Lebanese raise arm on the Palestinians. Suddenly, the Palestinian problem has become just an Arab problem. Suddenly Apartheid is not something the Israeli state can be solely accused of. No one describes it better than my blogging inspiration Sophia, with a vast view of the world; and a personal insight into the Middle East.
65 comments:
Hi Pen,
I agree with you Re Iranians/Afghans. I can only sweat with shame when I think of Afghan refuges in Iran! But they came to Iran when Iran was fighting its own enemies; just that Iran took in ober two million of those was significant.
The discussion about afghan refugese/immigrants/illegal workers in Iran is pretty much similar to the same about the alien workers in the US.
Speaking of giving citizenship to Afghans ... well, considering that the Iranian government doesn't seem to have open arms for many of its own "citizens", and basically anyone who has been sneezed on by anything washington-related is put in jail, nowadays; I cannot say/do much but sigh of the circumstances that are exacerbating state-paranoia!
But I have no expertise on Lebanon. So, I suggest you discuss with Sophia and I will be eagerly following and learning from you both.
naj,
thanks for that lovely poem you left me on my blog. i wish you would open another blog where you can post such beautiful words, i would like to read more of those from you.
I have an old article on lebanon politics that I had written .
let me dig it up.. :)
I read some of Sophia's post. I think it is a terrible thing that after 60 some years camps for Palestinian refugees still exist! Middle Eastern countries should have welcomed and integrated these people into their societies decades ago. One of my friends is of Palestinian ancestry. Her family moved to Jordan several generations ago, worked very hard, got well educated, and became successful. A few years ago, she was living in Saudi Arabia. She went to interview for a job assisting some minor Saudi princess. She was offered an insultingly low wage and turned down the job. She saw and heard of many other examples of Saudi people taking advantage of foreign workers who were seen as inferior. I suppose that racism, classcism, and bigotry can and do occur just about everywhere.
When I was in college, I had a friend who was from Lebanon. When I met him, he had been in the U.S. about 10 years. He told me how beautiful Lebanon was in his childhood memories, and how sad he felt that civil war had done so much damage to his country.
The news that I have heard about the current situation is that some Islamic militants (alledgedly linked to Al Qaeda) robbed a bank and then tried to hide from the police in the Palestinian camp. It is sad that thousands of people have been put in harms way and forced to flee because of these immoral criminals!
Naj,
Thanks for linking to that post. I left a comment that basically said, people are people and racism is (unfortuantely) everywhere. I should have added that race isn't always a factor in ill treatment of other peoples, especially of low-skilled workers (um, that would be me, by the way). It has more to do with classes or castes.
Anonymous,
I don't know what you mean by someone being technically racist but the Phalange party was created by gemayyel father grand'father when he visited Germany in the thirties and was impressed by the nazis.
You write: ''Some Lebanese consider themselves culturally to be superior to other Arabs (Syrian, Jordanian, Palestinians, and others).'' Can you tell me how do you lable this when this assumption is based, not actually on your merit and education but on your origin. Lebanese, in general, consider themselves culturally superior but at the same time they despise culture. They also consider themselves superior because they identify with western culture more than Arabs. How do you call this ? They also consider themselves culturally superior even when they actually are not culturally superior but they assume that the simple fact of being born lebanese gives the cultural superiority. How do you call this ?
Again, I am not genralising to all Lebanese. If you read carefully my title 'ordinary racism in Lebanon'. This is not accusing Lebanese of racism, this is rather describing their attitude in a certain context, and yes their attitude towards palestinoians is racist. I understand that Palestinians did not want probably to integrate in Lebanon because they were evicted from their country and if they take another citizenship they could face the possibility of loosing their fundamental right to return (recognized by the UN). But thay have been living in camps for 60 years, they cannot work in lebanon, only low wages and temporary handy work. Lebanon also has given citizenship to those of them who were christians fearing of tipping the balance of demographics toward the Muslim community.
Lebanon has laws agianst immigration for example. My husband could never become a Lebanese and work in Lebanon, even though he married a Lebanese. I could go on. I love my country but lets face it, there are problems, acute problems, and one should have the courage to speak. This is not an exageration.
I forgot some inetresting news about what is going on now. The lebanese government asked the US government for 280 million dollars help to fight 200 bank robbers ! I am not kidding.
The US will be sending 6 cargoflight the next two days to lebanon with ammunitions.
US Under secreatry of state David Welsh met with the Lebanese army chief last week. A mere coincidence !
A Pakistani friend who worked in UAE once told me that he found the local Arabs are the most racist people he has met.
I personally have not had that experience but then again I was never at UAE.
The Prophet delivered a very string sermon against this kind of thing just before he died - clearly many Muslims have forgotten the message of humility and equality (in the Eye of God) preached by the Prophet.
pen Name
Mystic Rose
===============================
I'm afraid if I am to dedicate a blog to poems, it will have to be in Persian. But yes, I love poetry too; that is, at times that my pragmatism is not ruling me! :)
Nunya
===============================
Yup. I agree with you. We all have a little prejudice tucked in the depth of our consciousness. It is just important to be(come)aware of it, face it and fight it at a personal level. and that's why sophia's piece is so important to me, personally. Not because it is pointing a finger at lebanon; but because this could happen ANYWHERE, in any of our countries.
Sophia
=============================
Merci for update.
===========================
the anonymous posting under name "naj" ... that's RUDE!
Naj, you asked if I have "ever seen those pictures of highway signs for muslims and non-muslims in Saudi Arabia?" I have not. I am curious, could you please tell me about them?
I agree with your sentiments about racism! In my lifetime, I have seen some progress though. When I was a kid in Alabama in the 1970's, there was still a fair amount of semi-institutionalized racism. The schools were more or less segregated. At that time, it was not a law based segregation, it was more about white neighborhoods and black neighborhoods having their own schools. However, my schools were a bit anomolous. I lived sort of on the border between the white and black sides of town. My elementary school was majority black and my junior high school was about 50/50 black/white. However, the high school I initially went to was almost all white. Then, after my 10th grade year, there was a court order to integrate the city school system and kids started to be bussed all over town. The two high schools, one white, the other black, were joined into one school with two campuses. On one campus would be 9th and 10th grades, while at the other would be 11th and 12th grades. It was wierd suddenly seeing all the black kids that I had known from junior high suddenly show up at my high school for the last two years. However, some of them had been my good friends, so it was no big deal to me. The white kids from the white junior highs had some serious culture shock though! In the classrooms we were all integrated, but when it came time for lunch, the kids resegregated themselves. There was literally a white side and a black side in the cafeteria! Well, I would occasionally cross over. The black kids were happy for me to drop by, but I got some nasty stares from some of the white kids. That was their problem, not mine! :)
David,
I've been digging my memory: I think I saw the pictures on the front page of "the Angry Arab" or "Fanonite" blogs. Not sure; it was a few months ago.
Speaking of "cultural" versus "DNA" racism: I can't say I have any significant experience with either. That said, there are still traces of class hierarchy present. The "blue blood" however, is increasingly givings its place to "green money" and "high education."
I do not "see" racism in others; unless they express it explicitely. But segregation of the black and white is one of those most bizarre facts of the history I will always have a huge difficulty grasping, because it forces a question about how we perceive ourselves as humans.
I'm sure you look like dirt, that's why you published a photo for your handsome father! I'm sure you look just like your mama the female urangutan
Well well, look who's back.
Our very own Racist (only against blacks and Persians) Pan-arabist icon, Amre Albino!
Showcasing some of his misogyny in addition to the rest of his political features!
Hi Anna,
sadly enough, this person considers himself a "defender" of Arab culture!
I hold a mirror in front of his face now and again, by letting his more benign hate comments go through! But I reject most of his death wishes for my father!
In muhajababes the author visits a Palestinian camp, in Lebanon. I always believed that the Arab countries used the Palestinian cause to take peoples' attention away from their own faults & corruption, while having a unifying cause. According to muhajababes, the Lebanese have basically caged in the Palestinians, giving them no rights, not even allowing them to have shops, while always blaming the Zionists for their misfortune and saying it is up to Israel to help free them, when they know that's not entirely true.
And I have lived in the U.A.E. and yes, there is a "class system" amongst the Arabs of the area. When I moved there, 10 years ago, it was my understanding that the Yemenis were the low men on the totem pole. I actually know a few Palestinians who have been granted special citizenship there. But, I also know Palestinians that were thrown out of Kuwait after the First Gulf War, when Arafat sided with Saddam - and they were also American citizens!
Note to anonymous:
You seem to have expertise in hatred-detection.
Since you are so liberal in throwing around hateful labels, I think you are suggesting that you are the master of hatred!
I do not publish irrelevant comments; and I also have little tolerance for bullies.
vagabondblogger
==========================
Welcome to neo-resistance.
It seems that there s a consensus here about the "abuse" of Palestinian s both by their so-called defenders and their well known enemies.
I, however, think people who resolve to be smart against their enemies, and who take their destiny in their own hands, will have a better chance of liberation and survival; than those who are passed back and forth in the courts of the united or divided nations.
Sadly, I see a prevalence in all of the middle eastern cultures (Persian, Jewish, Arab) for "blaming" the others.
to the GRUMPY anonymous.
=================================
Stop making noise on my blog. You will not get your anti-Iran platform here. Go get yourself a blog, or a life, or both!
I will NOT publish your out of context comments. Live with it!
Apologise for my late entry:
I hope there is still a place to add it
http://ef-111aardvark.blogspot.com/2007/05/palestinian-getto-in-lebanon-abstracts.html
First of All, I had no intention to write a single letter in the subject, but a hotly debate via Gmail with the dear cyber-frined Naj who recommended to publish our discussion!
aardvark,
==================================
This is gonna be a controversial post :)
Thanks for dropping by and making your letters public.
As I am not informed on Arab politics, I won't comment further.
but over all, I agree with you that the idea of any "over-arching" nation, is more of a fantasy than reality; and implementation of that ideology into any form of reality leads to RACISM of worst kind.
Here's Aardvark's post.
naj:
A unified Arab polity & state is the Dream Palace of Arabs. They sacrificed Islam, Palestine, and their relationship with Iran on that altar.
Reality will disabuse them by breaking things in them.
"Earth to Arabs: Come in please! Come in!"
You will know that when their school books start using "Persian Gulf", "Khuzestan", etc.
I do not think that the Iranian people blame the foreign powers for all their problems any more.
pen Name
You know Pen,
I am strangely starting to sympathize with Israel!!!
No ... Iranians have stopped nagging.
I just wish those so called "dissidents" who are on Washington's payroll with the (officially) objective of destabilizing Iran would bother themselves with re-examining theri grudges!
I also wish the Iranian thugs who are currently harassing people on mundane "personal" affairs and liberties would know what a service they are doing to the former thugs!
speaking of the officially stated objective
naj:
I have no sympathy for Israelis; they have chosen to be enemies of Islam; they did not have to do so.
pen Name
naj:
As I wrote before: since the assasination of Ali, there has never been a time that a Muslim has been safe in in his person, in his namus, and in his property except in British India.
I see these thugs and I know that they would have arrested the Prophet for having long hair and for freely talking to women.
It is in the Shia tradition that when Mahdi reveals himself (the 12-th Imam) and starts preaching Islam, people will think that he is speaking of a new religion.
These thugs are not for the Prophetic Religion - they are for power & humiliation.
They have killed the joys of Islam - no doubt.
pen Name
Pen,
I fail to see Israel's animosity to "Islam".
What's animosity to Islam, anyways?
LOL!
Prophet's long beard! Good one, Pen!
But I have to ask you this, since you are a muslim man, don't you find it rude that if you enter a house, women run to four corners to cover their hair from you?
I have been thinking a bit as I read through the comments (which is typical for me :) ). There is an American analogy to what happened to many Palestinian families after the creation of Israel. In America, during WWII, thousands of Japanese families with full American citizenship were uprooted from their homes and transported to internment camps. They lost their freedom, their homes, and most of their possessions. Something like 50 years after the end of the war, these families were finally given some degree of financial restitution by the United States Congress. These Japanese families weren't able to go back and reclaim the homes that they lost, and realistically, Palestinian families will never be able to either. However, I think it is quite possible and even morally obligatory for Israel and the U.S. (which has bankrolled Israeli expansion) to compensate Palestinian families for the property that they were in many cases forced to leave behind.
naj:
Their land grab policy, their policy of humiliation, their murderous assaults on Lebanon, their unwillingness to give up East Jerusalem, their insistence on the control of Al Haram Al Sharif have all transformed the War over there to a war of Jews & Muslims. This is no longer about 2 nationalisms: Arab & Jewish -it is now a war of Judaism & Islam.
pen Name
naj:
In regards to the women "women run to four corners to cover their hair from you".
No I do not find it insulting - I am mostly accept it as the way the world is.
I used to be saddened by it since to me it seemed that all the vaunted Islamic & Iranian culture had only managed to create a bunch of pathetic frightened little creatures.
What we need are Lionesses (shir zan), what we need are Hidalgos & Knights (Javan mard). Alas; what we produce are weak men and women.
Islam wants men and women to take great joy in Being, in Becoming, and in being Autonomous creatures. Islam wants men & women to be spiritually strong in the Knowledge of Word of God.
Islam is not about being frightened of your own shadow lest you be committing sins. It is not about fear, it is about Joy.
pen Name
Hello, I found this link on your site and it was really useful to me - thanks. Added the article and your weblink to my site :D Was wondering if youd add my site to your blogroll to if you like it :D
thanks!
Dave
http://justice4lebanon.wordpress.com
Pen name,
still what you say appears like a territory/nationalist fight to me, not religious.
Israelis are not fighting with muslims of India or Indonesia, are they?
...
Re Islam being a religion of all that you say ... well I am sure that at its onset that's what it aimed at, But the practices in the muslim nations of teh owrld over the past 13 centuries make me wonder which ISlam you are talking about.
Hi dave,
sure once I get around to it, I'll add your blog.
Cheers
Naj
naj:
Israel has taken over the third holiest shrine of Islam is not relinquishing its control. By this fact, and this fact alone, she has chosen to confront all muslims of the world.
I disagree with your blanket statement regarding the Islamic practices over the last 13 centuries of Islam - you need to be more nuanced.
Pen,
I agree with your disagreement about my blanketing statement, and yes I was purposefully generalizing.
Regarding Israel occupying Muslims thirs holiest shrine ... well, isn't that "3dr" holiest shrine of Muslims, the 1st holiest shrine of Jews (and Christians).
Frankly, I think the world would have been a much peaceful place of Muslims, Christians and Jews just converged and agreed that they were all Jews, but with different degrees of transmogrification!
naj:
This is not about religion; this is about power.
Jews want to humiliate others (in this case Muslims) by maintaining control of Al Haram Al Sharif.
As for that site being also the site of the Temple of Solomon - there is no consensus on that - there is no archeological evidence.
You wrote: "agreed that they were all Jews" you are not completely wrong: according to the Muslim tradition, Judaism, Christianity, and Islam are all manifestations of the One True Religion - ISLAM, which was the religion of Adam, that of Abraham, Moses, Jesus, and Mohammad.
But agreeing that we are all adhering to (different manifestations of) the same religion will not take the issue of power out of the struggle in Palestine.
This struggle is not about the Judaic roots of Islam or Christianity; it is about who is to rule on whom. As I wrote above, Jews have decided that it is more important to humiliate and dominate Muslims that it is to try to reach an accommodation with them.
The war & struggle will continue.
pen Name
naj:
In 2003, if my memory serves me right, during the occupation of Ram-Allah by the Israeli Army - the entire archives of the Palestinian Center for Social Research was removed to Israel. It had no military or intelligence value. You explain to me why that was done.
The national anthem of Israel speaks of the "longing in the soul of a Jew" - Israel is a country of Jews for Jews. Their acts of humiliation of the Palestinians and Lebanese has to be viewed in that light.
I do not understand why you are trying to bring EU into this. The closures, the road-blocks, the raids, the murders, and so on are committed by Jewish citizens of Israel and not by EU citizens. In fact, EU used to help the Palestinians.
US & UK share the blame, no questions about it. That is why the current US War on Terrorism is considered a Jewish-Christian War against Islam by many Sunni Muslims. And now, even in Iran, many people have come to share that view.
However, my point still stands; it is the Jews that are going out of their way to provoke and humiliate the Muslims.
For the Book says: "Sow the Wind, Reap the Whirlwind".
pen Name
EU helped palestinians. But Palestine was a British colony!
So was the rest of Arabia!
Theodor Herzel didn't start his racist agenda "against" Islam, but "pro" European Jews.
The Eropean jews do not consider the African jews (or sephardic ones) quite as worthy as the ashkenazi ones.
The racis project of Europeans (pushed ahead full force by Hitler) found a smaller test bed in Palestine. So I am not surprised that the Israeli state is trying to complete anihilation of palestinains by destroying the "papers" of their existance. Lem me wonder, didn't Hitler do the same?
If the "racist" project of the 21 century is lining up muslims and christians and jews against eachother, this doesn't make it a "religious" conflict. It is still a racist one!
And as I said, this racis project is primarily targeting the semetic races of the world: Arabs, and the unfortunate jews who are stuck in their holy land, because when they were being exterminated in Europe, the sugar uncles in the New York ports turned them away.
EU helped Palestine! So what?!
And no it is not the Europeans who are doing the CRIMES of present. But the conflic between palestinians and Jews is serving every purpose of the "white" empire, isn't it? Isn't election of Sarkozy an indicator of the subtle European desire for arab suppression?
The fact that Arabs and Jews cannot get along, and cannot let their histrical hatred for eachother to rest is sad. But I hold them both equally responsible.
When an Arab like that Amre blames Iranians for "never expelling Jews" like the rest of the muslim middle eastern contries, it is alluding to me that Arabs are not so fair toward jews either. And I also have very little symathy for suicide bombings; because that act is legitimizings Israel's DISRESPECT for palestinian lives. Killing with bouldozers = killing with body detonation!
That said, I have NO sympathy for the Israeli government; but I refuse to join in the war of religions. Israel-Arab conflict remains a "savage" territorial conflict, savagery distributed evenly between the two parties! And savagery not prevente, but SUPPORTED by the "super-races" of the world, who have armed Israel to the teeth, and have depleted the arabs of every amunition, including self-respect: producing lunatics such as Amre and his favorit maniac: Saddam!!
I wish for peace between Middle easterners, whether they are muslim, Jew, Turk, Arab, Kurd, Persian!
may i interfere in the discussion?
-Israel is established on the concept of Zionism, an idieology transformed a religion into a nationality [Jewish=Israeli]
-Palestine had the chance to be declared as a national state accoridng to 1947 partition resloution by UN, nevertheless the theocratic concept of thniking prevailed & palestine case developed through the very opposite direction of Israel, [aborted national identity into a fanatic theoocratic endless struggle without clear objective, unless you agree w. Mr.Naji that Israel can be wiped out of the map]
i don't know what sort of acceptable or possible compromise can be applied to solve the Palestinian Crisis?!!??
again a low persian dirt like you who is low because of her crappy iranian origin and low ethics is lying. I never blamed Iran for not expelling jews. I just want iran to stay away with its smelly crappy culture and dirty people away from us
Pen Name,
I agree with you about the Israeli-Palestinian conundrum!
And I remain convinced that religion should NOT be used at the premise for war nor peace.
==================================
Amro,
Someone's been archiving all your blunders, buddy!
You may go around delete your posts, but our "quarrel" started when you were complaining that Iranians were not trust-worthy because unlike Saddam, they never expelled Jews ... remember? when you were defending Saddam's use of chemical gas on civilians?!
Pen Name and Dr V should remember your remark!
Pen, maybe instead of repenting Amro can go to war with us dirty Persians. If his war tactics are as lousy as his argumentation, he will join his hero soon!
---------------------------------
Amro, yes I know you keep sending me (rude) private messages and ask me to not "provoke" you ... but son, you need to learn to not get easily provoked. I am doing this for your own good! Try to learn something; because no weapon can kill faster than one's own stupidity!
I hope you lean something from your Arab tutors. Iam going to be very decent with you despite of your typically Iranian low attidude.
I suggest that post a link to dr v post LOL. Pen nameh complained about iraq expelling jews and i said that the act was justified.
Aout iran what really made you angry is when i said good fence good neighbour! and i i said that iran is not Arab and should stay away of us with it culture and troubles!
In the mean time i emphathised that we could be friends just like the the turks are friends with ARABS. But from far away.
It seems that it has annoyed you so much for you seem to be very keen on sticking yourself to us.
Hope you publish this decent comment.
I have never een something more sticky than you. It is very simple naj. Iran is not an arab country. we dont want it! stay within your boardes we dont want to be yourenemies
as for you what is making you angry.
i rejected your offer of friendship. because i cant deal wit iranians as long as they commiting terror in Iraq. It is clear that you dont oppose the terror execued by your people in Iraq. Thereofre i cant help i.. I just dont want to have anything to do with you.
That is what is making you very angry, isn't it?
Why do you want to teach me lessons? Just puff off LOL
I think the lase two eamils were not a anti iranian propaganda, thy were just my explaination to what you have been saying about me in your posts. Go on show the iranian values and publish them heeeeeeee
Dear Pen Name
I denial nothing, after all Israel is established on a (religion) concept that expands to include contemporary State concept.
All i want to say is the Jews [Israelis, Zionists, Ancestors of Pigs & Monkey, whatever] managed the struggle at the last century a way better than us
they established on ground realities that we
1/ neither have the material power or the willingness to pay the price (forget the fanatic islamist propaganda relics) to eliminate it [The same the communists did in south veitnam]*.
2/ nor we (the Arabs, the muslims)have the sheer power & size to contain Israel [the smae China is doing in Taiwan, Hong Kong]*.
*not perfect examples, only to make it clear
Mr. Pen Name
you support [bi-national state] solution, so you want to bridge the historical, ideological, social & ECONOMIC gap between Israel Jews & Gaza Populants??
....Ya Imam Hussein !!!!
LOL!
Aark you are funny! Loved your "Ya Emam Hussein!" I guess you meant "jeeeesus!"
But aside from joking, I am not sure what you mean, are you sugesting that the people of the middle east have "lost" the battle of the last century, because they have been foolish and fooled by the smarter EuroZionists?
Eurozionist or as Pen correctly puts is the "Jewish of Diaspora" who will not ALLOW any peace for the Palestinians or Israelis, in the foreseeable future.
I personally think the war with Zionists cannot be won with a bunch of self-blowing desparate fanatics. The Eurozionists are a buch of financially and intellectually sophisticated bunch, and they need to be countered with financially and intellectually sophisticated "weapons", and WMD is not such a weapon. "Respect" is. The middle Easterners need to CLAIM their "respect", and no respect doesn mean becoming the switzerland of the middle east, like Dbai is becoming!
Until Iranians, Arabs, Kurds, Palestinians have started communicating their "culture" and "economy" effectively and respectably, they will remain sbject to humiliation!
Rights are never GIVEN, rights are gotten!
That said, Israel still needs to compensate her neighbors and apologize.
Dear Naj,
-As a Muslim i pay much respect to the [Al-Albayt_the lineage of the Prophet, though i don't approve the theology of Sheya, the marches, the mournings]
-Al-Imam Al-Hussien is the most romantic martyr-heroism i ever read about, but it has no place in bragmatic world.
-Dubai & Doha are the most expensive fancy Egg Shell ever made
-Yes, we lost the last 50 years of struggle, and the coming period is not hopefull coz we still utilize the same approach & the same mentality.
-as an egyptian, i conclude that we been lucky enough to disengage from the futile struggle against superior adversaries without losing much of our territory
P.S.[Naqab Triangle is geomorphologically part of Sinai, we lost it]
let other arabs call us cowards as much as they like, i don't care, if they think they can do better, they are welcome to prove it!!
Speaking about the phiosophy of the Bi-National or Bi-Nation compromises, you will find a good discussion there
http://kishkushim.blogspot.com/2007/05/gaza-or-bust.html
!!!!
Pen,
Yes Kurds inside Iran consider themselves Iranians. I didn't mean to consider them a separate "people".
I do not know about Kurds who live in Iraq or Turkey. But if Iranian is to mean the inhabitants of the Iranian Plateau, in deed, Kurds are among the most original Iranians!
by the way, Israel is no longer composed of Euro-Zionist only (the Saferdeem) and east european (Ashkinaaz), there is 1.75m jew israeli who are of middle eastern origins
+0.9m arab & persian jews been expelled or harassed to leave between 1948-1968, only to fill the ranks of IDF army and fuck us like hell in 1967!!!
The kurdish language is the most close life language to persian
Aardvark,
Actually I don't care if the rest of Arabs call Egypt coward! I respect nations that do what they can to protect their inabitants.
Yes I do have a romaticist's relationship to shiism; and althouggh Imam hossein is the icon of Shiites; for me shiism is a nationalist struggle, a deviation from the Arabian ways .. and back into the romanticism of Persia's oriental heritage.
Yes I am a pragmatist, but I would not be happy if shiism had not made Iranians as idealistic, as poetic and as romatic as they are.
Take a look at persian calligraphy, all curves, all dance, all flirtation, and compare it to other Islamic calligraphs. See what I mean?
And look at the Ashura and the self-beatings in teh same way you look at a Braizilian festival! Look at it as a choreograhed festival of remembering history, and remembering an intense moment of resistance ... then it will look beautiful to you ... dance of emotions should not mean anything ... Sufis whirl ... is'n that beautiful?
I fully understand what you are trying to say but....
psychologically i am not whilling to whip myself for a maitake been made 1000 year ago...
or to consider some one a saint for relation to Ali & Fatma, after 1000 year of genetic dilution, what will remain?!?
Idealism, Romanticism, it gives fantasy to our life, but when you are in charge, when you bear a responsibility, only [REALITIES] to be consider...
The Realm of Orchelim been a romatic fantazia for jews, realized only by will & systematic approach.
by the way, the arabian literature, caligraph art, architeture is a creative student to a persian teacher
the arabian basics of language
النØÙˆ
been set academically by a persian academians [Ben Khemaraweih]& [Sebaweih]
aardvark,
Psychologically, I won't whip myself either. And aesthetically, I don't consider the flagging a very pretty practice either.
Frankly, because I do not know anyone who does the self-flagellation, I am just theorizing.
And I fully agree with you that romanticism has been the mother of most peril in the world. That is why I think that which makes us the most civilized, is also what makes us far more dangerous than if we where animals.
I mean, psychologically speaking, cats do not beat themselves; cats also do not bother making pyramids. So, just as we MAKE civilizations, we make dangerous idologies and etc as well.
Among the masses, Ashura may be morning a 1300 years old atrocity; but the intellectual elite (which ironically includes mullahs as well) has utilized Ashura to unite Iranians under one flag.
I am not a religious person by no stretch of imagination, but from the scientist's POV I know that faith/love/madness is capable of mobilizing energies that logic cannot!
The art of the 21st century would be to strike a balance between these two. We can no longer afford to disenfranchize people who behave irrationally.
Aardvark EF-111B & Naj:
You guys are missing the point about Imam Hussein:
Imam Hussein asked: "Hal min nasra yansorni?" - Is there any one among you to aide me?
He knew he was going to die, that his relatives will be killed and will suffer, and that there is no justice in this world.
But chose the path of righteousness, the path of duty to God.
He predated the silly romanticism of Europe by centuries.
It is only when we comemorate him that we experience delicacy of feeling and tenderness in our hearts as Muslims. The rest of Islam is devoid of such (atefi) feelings. It is a catharsis (emotionally) for us.
The feelings and passions that are stirred in us are simialr to those of the adherents of Christianity for Jesus and also similar to Siavoshan for Siavosh, the martyred son of Kavoos.
pen Name
Pen,
It fascinates me, how you and I (and you and aardvark) say the very same thing; yet you keep thinking that we miss the point.
If someone doesn't connect in an emotional way to Imam-Hussein, it doesn't mean they miss THE point.
Pen, Aardvark did NOT make any comment about Iranian Jews having been expelled. I appreciate it if you do not throw shame around.
Merci.
=======================================
Also, speaking of namus and etc ... Frankly, I prefer the "intact" Paris to the "Rebuilt" Berlin or London!
There are always better ways of fighting an enemy, than getting oneself killed!
Now Imam hossein refused to not surrender, because surrender would have meant death without honor.
If shiite were to just get themselves killed over every whim, then Ali would have started a tantrum and have gotten himself killed as well!
So muslims are not supposed to be a bag of unfruitful emotions either!
naj:
Imam Hussein chose the death of righteousness when he was being tested.
Being able and willing to choose Death in the Path of Righteousness for God is the only way that we can Save ourselves.
This is what Imam Hussein's life has meant.
And I am not putting words in any one mouth - read the fellows statement again.
You think being emtional, being irrational, being un-pragmatic are all the same. You are worng.
And pray, tell me, what does it mean to be rational? How do you define reason? How can u judge some one to be reasonable?
About Namus: When Afghan rebels had surrounded Julfa, they demanded a tribute young Armenian boys in addition to Armenian girls in order to spare Julfa.
You do not know the depths of depravity of the history of Near East.
And I do not care about some silly girls and her cosmetic surgery; she could have beocme a sighe and that would have been the end of it.
Ya Imam Hussein
depravity of the history of near east ... yeah. I know!
The silly sigheh and etc, you lost me brother!
Re emotion/ration ... see my comments above. We need to be rethinking "reason" ... that's what I am saying. So, our definitions might end up overlapping; but my definition needs to be reproduced by experimental design for it to become valid. I do not see any divinity that can communicate to me through mediums other than my "senses."
( used mediumS to not connotate it with media!)
naj:
"experimental design"?
How do you do that for Love, Hatred, Fascination, Hunger, Thirst, Lust, etc.
pen Name
Pen,
love, lust, anger, fear, etc. activate a chain of physiological responses that can be measured, objectively and reproducibly!
You can take a look at Antonio Damasio, for example.
naj:
The physiological measurements are not the same as the feelings themselves; is the frequecy of light impinging on the retina the same as the sensation of color?
yup, frequency and the intensity of light determines and modulates the sensation and that can be measured.
Frequency may be measured but it is not a measure of the sensation of color. You are dreaming if you think observational neuroscience can shed light on human mind.
well Pen, I will leave it to you to investigate what direction the new theories of mind are venturing into; and how the neuroscientists measure sensation.
I'm afraid it is you who is dreaming of a "mind".
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