Wednesday, May 30, 2007

Lezat bebarid :)

This will be lost in translation!

98 comments:

Naj said...

Pen name,

vaghean konjkavam nazare shoma ro raje be in "president" bedoonam!

Anonymous said...

I cannot see what you have posted.

pen Name

Naj said...

oops sorry.

aghaye ahmadinejad dar morede yek dokhtare 16-17 saale sohbat mokonek, ke ba komake baradaresh dar khoonash "energiye haste i ro kashf kardeh"!

it's a youtube clip.

I heared about it when I was in Iran but I was sure it's just a joke. I'm just very very curious "which" audience he was talking to.

نیکی said...

this clip is so embarassing. I thought i was misunderstanding something when i first heard it, but sadly i didn't mishear him, he actually said those things.

Naj said...

Hi Niki, nice to see you.

When I heard about this in Iran I first didn't believe it; and then thought his "audience" must be put in perspective.

Imagine, if he is talking to a group of villagers, for example, or if he is speaking to a group of religious zealots (of which he pretends to be one, but I do not quite believe him), then such a statement, about a 17 year old girl's discovery of nuclear technology kills two birds with one stone:
1) it promotes his mantra of home-grown nuclear technology
2) it promotes the participation of women in science and technology.

Imagine if he were talking to a group of people who were likely to force their daughter's hand in marriage at the age of 16! Wouldn't the little "promotion" be considered as promoting the women education? Can you guess how many votes he can buy with that little fable?

The problem of the Iranian intellectual elite is their disconnection from the "masses." Everyone is educated in a big city, everyone is educated abroad; and thus everyone speaks "rationally" without risking major embarrassments!

The winning card of populists like George Bush and Ahmadinejad is in their realization of the "power" of appealing to the "subconscious" ... subconscious doesn't operate at the level of rationality.

The Goebbels' project is being tested in our time.

Anonymous said...

naj:

This is a doctored video-tape with the voice over. I suppose it may be considered funny by some.

There was, in fact, a high-school student in USA who constructed a small nuclear reactor in his mother's backyard. He did this about 10 years ago and he used commonly available materials and open sources.

I think some of the nuclear reactions taking place in that reactor had only been observed earlier in breeder reactors.

Mr. Ahmadinejad has been a good President for Iran. I cannot go into details here though.

And in the Inernational Arena, he has been able to advance the cause of Iran much more forcefully than any of his predecessors.

pen Name

Anonymous said...

Very interesting article over at Just World News on Irans policy towards Al QUaida. Quoting:

"Unreported in the west, Iran’s president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad replied with a full-bore blast aimed at al-Zawahiri:

"Why do you, who want to kill Americans, kill innocent people and place bombs in the [Iraqi] market place?... On behalf of all the women and children in Asia, Europe and America, who have been victims of al-Qaida terrorists, I wish for you and your terrorist group hellfire, and would gladly sacrifice my life to annihilate you."

pen Name

Naj said...

Pen,

Yes I agree with you on his promotion of Iran. Frankly, if it weren't to put an interpretive touch on his representation of Iran, perhaps I would not be blogging!

I always say that his blunders have given Iranians a chance to "introduce" themselves beyond the picture of Betty Mahmoodi!

I am happy that this is a doctored video. Because if not, I would be taking my little interpretation up there to him and ask him give me a spin doctorate! ;)

Naj said...

Pen do you have the link to it, please?

Anonymous said...

http://justworldnews.org/

Half way in the middle - search for "Ahmadinejad"

Naj said...

Yes.
Actually, much of what he says is not unreasonable.
take Letter to the US pres.
But the media is controlled by the you know which diaspora!!!

Anon-Paranoid said...

naj...
Since I probably wouldn't understand it I didn't play it. I think that ahmadinejad may be a good leader for Iran, however not living near there or truly knowing how the Iranian people actually live I can't make a good case on it.

I do know though that Der Fuehrer Bush will more than likely attack Iran and start World War III.

Our Decider is evil and have no doubt about it. He is destroying everything that America was built on and like his surrogate father Adolph only the World can stop him.

I hope I'm wrong, however after the Iraq debacle I seriously don't think so.

Stay safe and continue to tell the world about Iraq, Iran and the rest of the Middle East. Maybe one day we can all live in peace if people like you help to enlighten the American people and the World with the truth.

God Bless you.

Naj said...

Hi Anon,

Unless you speak Persian, you won't get the entertainment value of the clip!

I'm not sure if Ahmadinejad is a good or a bad leader. Iran seems to be led by different people at the moment; bu the grand objective of all is to preserve the IRI.

As for George Bush attacking Iran ... well I think Americans need to contain the war mongering politicians. Georgie is not so alone in his mania: there is Senator Clinton and Senator McCain, and Obama and Edwards and ... all competing for being the blood shedder of history! Making one wonder, is American voter really blood thirsty; or scared numb out of all sense and sensibility?

nunya said...

Hey Naj, how about letting us non-persian speakers in on the joke here?

David said...

Ahmadinejad said that a 17 year old girl is the Mother of the Iranian nuclear energy program? Perhaps this statement was doctored up. I know that he is not stupid, considering that he has a Ph.D. in civil engineering. However, he has publically denied the Holocaust! One can not be a rational human being and do that, as far as I am concerned.

I agree that Iran has the right to develop its own nuclear energy program. However, I feel very uneasy about Iran having a nuclear bomb. I think that if Iran produces nuclear weapons, the initial motivation will be to deter a U.S. invasion. Indeed, I am certain that Bush's invasion of Iraq has made it far more likely that Iran will develop nuclear weapons! However, who in Iran would be entrusted with the safekeeping of such weapons? Would they not be placed into the hands of the Revolutionary Guard? Then if the Guard overthrows the establishment, what then? The Guard is populated by Shia fundamentalists is it not? The worst atrocities of history have been committed in the name of religion! Hence my feelings of unease.

Naj said...

Nunya, David described the joke :)

David, revolutionary guards are not really a bunch of lunatic fanatics. they are just very well trained and loyal soldiers.

Iran, it's revolutionary guards, and even it fundamentalists do NOT have a destructive mentality; I will feel safer with them having a nuclear bomb, than Pakistanis; for instance.

Re denying holocaust: FALSE!
To demand a discussion about the "size" of holocaust is not to DENY it. And frankly, I too believe that the lack of discourse about the holocaust is not healthy. Just as muslims should not eb fanatic about depiction of mohammad in a cartoonn; the rest of the world should also not be fanatic about holocaust.

Holocaust happened in this century. Let the documents speak and convince the skeptics! What's the point of shooting anyone who is a skeptic (about the SIZE) of that atrocity considered a dangerous criminal ??????????

Maybe someone is afraid that the history would find other perpetrators in addition to Hitler?

Anonymous said...

David:

You in the West, especially in Europe, have created a new religion out of Shoah. One cannot discuss the dimensions of the destruction of the European Jewry in a dispassionate way any longer - certainly not in EU or in North America.

Consider: the figure of six million dead that is bandied around without historical research to substantiate it - to my knowledge.

Consider: that the diary of Anne Franck is a fabrication (her writings being mated with someone else's).

Consider: the number of Jews that Wallenberg saved (tens of them) which popular culture in the West has at hundreds or thousands.

In my opinion, the Jews (Zionists, Secularists, Religious etc.), in order to realize & further their agenda in Palestine, have (ab)used Shoah as a propaganda tool. They dress and parade the dead, the tortured, the murdered, and the mutilated in front of the world just so that they could steal Palestinian land. This is how it looks to many Mulsims – in my opinion.

The West, Israel, Jews, have lost the Muslim people on the Shoah. Mr. Ahmadinejad (whose main point has been the criticism of the Shoah as a political tool to advance the political & military aims of Israel) is articulating what hundreds of millions of Muslims think; Arabs, Turks, Iranians, Pakistanis, Indonesians, and others. I venture to say the 2/3 of Muslim leaders also agree with him.

Many of us agree that the European Jewry was decimated by the Germans and their collaborators.

Consider: Immediately after WWII, they were selling a lot of used clothing in Iran (perhaps in the rest of the Middle East as well, I do not know) – they were called “Jew Clothes”. I suspect that those clothes belonged to the murdered Jews. One of my relations bought a fur coat there and later she found a diamond necklace sewn inside the lining.

But accepting some historical conditions does not mean that we have to accept every bit of kitsch that comes with it; specially when that kitsch is used to further the aims of Israel.

In regards to nuclear weapons, Israel & Pakistan are both threats to Iran. I have understood Israel to posses thermo-nuclear weapons (a.k.a. hydrogen bombs) . These are weapons of terror against cities. I could understand that that state will need atomic bombs to counter the threat of numerically superior enemy forces but not hydrogen bombs.

Pakistan, a state that is being dominated by Sunni extremism, is no friend of Iran any longer. It was at one time but living next door to a rickety state with nuclear weapons is not comforting – especially if there is a danger of anti-Shia Sunni extremists to take over that state.

Now you live somewhere in the West under the blanket of security provided by the nuclear forces of US. Well, we do not have that and we were the second country after Japan that was repeatedly attacked (by Iraq) with chemical weapons. Your governments – EU & US – were complicit in that – in my judgment. Never again!

Now you can bomb us and your best shot will kill and maim about 15,000 people and cause upwards of $ 200 billion in damages. But that has to be weighed against the potential of a nuclear attack on Tehran, Mash-had, etc.

And of course, the Guardians of Revolution, are firm believers in Shia Islam. Iran is a country of Shia for the Shia – without that religion and its fervor Iran would not and could not exist.

Accept us the way we are or leave us alone.

Ya Ali!

pen Name

nunya said...

Naj, I tried to write a response in the comments section of my blog, but there were too many links, so I ended up with this post .


you write:
"Maybe someone is afraid that the history would find other perpetrators in addition to Hitler?"

Are you sure you want to go there?

Adolph Hitler Meets with Grand Mufti Amin Al Husseini

I'm of the opinion that the Palestinian issue is perfect for Muslim propaganda.
The distraction factor---Hey, look at evil Israel, don't look at how fucked up we are---

Nobody really wants to help people who are willing to breed themselves right into starvation
Sorry, but after seeing these numbers over and over again I can't help but think that (fundamentalist) Islam is a stupid religion that needs to be left in the 12th century. Yeah, yeah, I know, ALL fundamnetalists (and idiots) breed too much. But why does it seem to be worse in an area where there's not enough water and the language isn't complex enough to deal with the technology necessary for the creation of water?

nunya said...

Hey Naj, why don't you send that nutjob amre my way, I'll give him the what for.

:)

Naj said...

Nunya;

You are confounding just too many issues together; and thus fall in the very trap of your leaders:
middle east=fundamentalism=overbreeding!

I guess "reductionism" is a very fashionable American trend?

Naj said...

Nunya ... fundamentalism is not necessarily an "Islamic" thing.

There exists akso:

-marxist fundamentalism
-feminist fundamentalism
-christian fundamentalism
-hippist fundamentalism
-capitalist fundamentalism
-liberal fundamentalism
-atheist fundamentalism

And the list goes on and on and on!

Naj said...

Nunya

Re Amro ... he's a desolate lonely boy, craving attention.

Yesterday he sent a message begging to be friends and giving his Arab-word that he won't be rude and begging that I be kinder than him!

And as I didn't publish it (just to test how honorable his Arab word is), he has been diffusing hate language again!

Now this Amro is a GREAT example of a hitler-pawn encarnate; albeit without German sophistication! May he join his Mufti in hell or heaven!! Amen!

He's a pathetic loser, don't waste your time on him.
=================
By the way, Nunya,
read the "Sohia's Lebanon" post and discussions. You may find them interesting and find the answer to some of your "wonderings"

Anonymous said...

nunya:

What you have written are provocations.

Your country never admitted Jewish refugees. It did not lift a finger before WWII to do a damn thing for Jews.

Your folkish heroes; Charles Lindberg and Ford were both great admirerers of Herr Hitler until the eve of US entry into WWII. And there were countless other anti-semites among your people in positions of leadership & power.

Your government gave sanctuary to NAZI war criminals in US; or else facilitated their resettlement in places such as Bolivia and other parts of South America.

The Palestinians, like many orthodox Jews, like to have many children. They enjoy them and they have, in the words of Leviticus, "Chosen Life".

Their hardship has to do with Israel and you & your country men's support for the state of Israel and her policies. You live and pay taxes in US and thus you are complicit in the crimes of Israelis against the defenseless and opressed Palestinian mothers and children.

We have a shortage of water in the Near East, just like parts of Africa, India, and South Western US etc. We are aware of it and willy-nilly we are coming to grips with it.

Some of our wounds are self-inflicted, others are caused by your country.

With Malice towards Some

pen Name

Naj said...

:)

Pen Name, Politikybitch (Nunya) is no defender of the US policies.

"darse mo'alem ar bovad, zemzemeye mohabati ..."

Zeinobia said...

Well Naj I came here today already because I don't understand Persian and I needed your help in something I was found while searching for some info about the defeat of 1967
http://www.iran-newspaper.com/1384/840815/html/history.htm
what is this saying ?? it is about Amar but I can't make more than his name ironically

about the clip well I didn't play but to tell you the truth Najid is a strange personality ,I prefer Mohamed Khatami on him very much
from reading the comments he seemed to say some fantastic stuff in his speech ,well dear you have to watch Momar El-Gaddafi speeches to see the real jewels in his talk

Naj said...

Hi Zeinobia

Will you forgive me if I don't translate the whole argument for you? :)

It's a piece of history, writen on the 38th anniversary of the 6day war; and it's about Nasser's dance with power and Amer's suicide. Just narrative history.

Re Ghaddafi ... well I do not understand what he says, so the fun will be lost in translation!

Our Ahmadinejad seems to have a talent for being a stand up comedian, at times. I think he is really trying to be funny; but his version of funny doesn't appeal to the refined taste of Iran's intellectuals or the "upper classes".

I loved a piece in Angry arab about Ahmadinejads' empty empty promises. Trace it in Sophia's Lebanon post if you like.

Cheers

David said...

Naj, I hope you are right about the Revolutionary Guards. If they are truly a professional cadre of soldiers, it is less likely that they might make a coup against their own government someday.

Pakistan is of concern to me also. Musharrif is in daily danger of being assassinated. If he is killed, what then? I don't know. Pakistan is the origin of the Taliban. Pakistanis are giving shelter to Bin Laden and his fellow terrorists. I think that the U.S. is far more likely to be nuked by a weapon of Pakistani origin than Iranian.

Ok, I stand corrected about what Ahmadinejad actually said about the Holocaust. Still, to say that a smaller Holocaust happened rather than a larger one is to deny a large number of victims historical justice. Regarding the documentation of the Holocaust, there is in fact so much documentation that it would be impossible for one person to thoroughly review it. There are literally millions of documents. The Germans were a very meticulous people. I do not know the names of the repositories where all the documents are stored, but I presume that such information is easily accessable.

You are right that the Nazis are not the only people to blame for the Holocaust. America actually sent boatloads of Jewish refugees back to Europe. Most of those people eventually died in Nazi death camps. President Roosevelt was informed in great detail about what was happening in the death camps several years before the allied victory in Europe, yet he did nothing. The death camps were factories of mass murder. If they had been leveled by allied bombing, some Jews would have died in the attack, but maybe a great number would have survived if the machinery of extermination had been destroyed.

Maybe I am more attuned to the Holocaust than most people, but I am no fanatic about it. I have learned about the Holocaust in great detail starting when I was about 10 years old. Half of my ancestors are Jewish. However, I am not conventionally religious. I do not see myself as a Jew, a Christian, or a member of any other organized religion. Yet it is not lost on me that had I lived in Nazi occupied Europe in WWII, I probably would have been murdered. The Nazis exterminated anyone who had at least one Jewish grandparent. Some people killed were Christians who happened to have one Jewish grandparent.

I have no particular affinity for Israel either. The creation of Israel resulted in the displacement of a great many Palestinians. The later expansion of Israel caused even more suffering for Palestinian people. I do not believe that Jewish people had the right to return to reclaim a lost homeland after nearly 2000 years. Yet Israel exists and it is a geographical fact that is not going to disappear.

David said...

Pen Name,

I think that I have addressed some of what you said in my comment to Naj. However, I will respond to a few things.

The Holocaust was not just about the extermination of European Jews. As many as 3 million Gypsies were also murdered. Also, there were hundreds of thousands of mentally ill and retarded people who were put to death. If Hitler had conquered the world, where do you think he would have stopped in his rediculous ideas about racial purity? Genetically, Jews and a great number of non-Jewish Middle Easterners are very close cousins, if not brothers and sisters.

I absolutely disagree with what you said about Anne Frank. Anne's father survived the war. Indeed, he would not allow the publication of parts of her writing. If you don't want to believe him, the family that hid the Franks survived the war also. There is plenty of eyewitness testimony from them and their neighbors to corroborate the truth of Anne's writing.

I don't know that much about Wallenburg, so I will not debate that issue with you.

I have never heard that the clothes of murdered Jews were sold in Iran!

As far as I am concerned, I would like to see a nuclear free Middle East. I don't think that Israel really needs nuclear weapons. They devastated the infrastructure Lebanon with conventional bombs (I think that was quite stupid, btw, and in the long run it will make Israel less secure not more, in my opinion). If Israel gave up its nukes, Iran might have less motivation to develop its own.

I agree that America was complicit in the Iraqi chemical attacks on Iran. I am ashamed at my government for that crime against humanity, and for many others, as well!

You said that Iran without Shia Islam would not and could not exist. Well, I agree that the IRI would not exist, but Iran has a very ancient civilization that existed for thousands of years prior to the coming of Islam. I understand that there is some scholarly debate as to whether Iraq was actually the "cradle of civilization". I think it is possible that the earliest civilization may have occurred in Iran! I have no wish to insult your beliefs, but your ancestors were a great people long before Islam became an important part of Iranian culture.

Anonymous said...

Najid is a strange personality ,I prefer Mohamed Khatami on him very much

Two Faces for same coin!

" Mohammad Khatami was the president of Iran between the years of 1997 and 2004. The State Department listed Iran as the number-one state sponsor of terrorism during those years. Among other things, during the Khatami years, Iran refused to hand over to the United States the Iranian intelligence officials who supervised the attack on the Khobar towers that killed American soldiers. Khatami continues to support Hezbollah, Hamas, and has called for the destruction of the state of Israel.

During the Khatami era, freedom of press and assembly was relaxed by the Iranian intelligence and security apparatus to lull the reformists and true democrats into a false sense of security; thousands and thousands of students, journalists, women, clerics, and women started to express their opinions freely. For their foolish faith, many of them would pay. Khatami was president during the biggest crackdown on the Iranian media since the beginning of the Iranian revolution. Khatami was president when Jews were sent to prison on charges of espionage. Khatami was president when Canadian journalist Zahra Kazemi was killed and Khatami was president when thousands of university students were arrested after the 1999 student rioting. I could go on.

While Khatami gets ready to feast at the banquets being thrown in his honor, Ahmad Batebi, the hero of the 1999 student movement, must prepare himself for another day of torture and beatings in solitary confinement."

Anonymous said...

Norway on top, Iraq least peaceful place to be
A study conducted for British magazine Economist to compile an index of peaceful living standards across the world determined that Norway is the most peaceful country to live in, while Iraq is the least.

1. Norway
2. New Zealand
3. Denmark
4. Ireland
5. Japan
6. Finland
7. Sweden
8. Canada
.
.
.
97. Iran

Anonymous said...

Are you sure you want to go there?

Adolph Hitler Meets with Grand Mufti Amin Al Husseini

They said Iraq had WMD? And then the truths came out loudly!!!

Let us face it the west did the crimes against Jews who live in west and east EU, their guilt thrown on to ME, just propaganda again and again....

The Jews who lived in ME had never been slaughtered or killed in mass, yes there where incident happened you need to go and do your homework about Sultan Abdul Hammed who granted welcomed the Jews those flee from Spain and Portugal.

BTW, Hitter had met many officials from around the world during his time, did that means we put them as Nazi supporters?

Naj said...

David
==================================
In my honest opinion, even if holocaust had happened to only 5 Jews, 2 gypsies and 0.5 mentally ill person, it would STILL be as horrible a crime as it was.

The systematicness with which one of the MOST advanced civilizations of the world engaged in EXTERMINATION of a subgroup of people stains the WHOLE civilization history.

We are not immune to repeating the same atrocity again. In fact, George Bush is doing just that, well he will if he unleashes his nukes on Iran!

I agree with pen name that holocaust is used as a smoke-screen for Israel. It is THAT particular issue that Ahmadinejad contests.


Peacefulness Index
===========================
Norway 1
...
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA 97
Islamic Republic of Iran 98
...
Israel 119
Iraq 120

Norway and Iraq both have oil!

Iran and US both have wired governments!

================================
Re Ahmade Batebi:

The HERO

urm ... Isn't he the guy arrested because of holding a bloody t-shirt in front of a camera?

I have been trying to locate some of his writings that would qualify him as a hero of a student movement. Can you help me please?

But that makes his arrest and imprisonment even more of a failure of Mr Khatami and the rest ...

However, I will STOP SHORT of calling anyone who is in prison in Iran a HERO.

Naj said...

Amre
========================

You are not welcome here anymore. You have exhausted all your opportunities.

Your comments are automatically filtered into trash.

Anonymous said...

David:

About Anne Franck's diary; the man who told me that it was a fabrication was Alfred M. Lilienthal - you may search for books by him.

As I said before, we are aware of the Shoah, the Gypsies, the extermination of Slavic people who could read and write in the occupied territories of USSR, etc.

Nuclear-free Middle East is a pipe-dream. We, in Iran, have to do what we must to defend ourselves. In both WWI and WWII we stated our neutrality but we were invaded by the Russians, Ottoman Turks (WWI) and Russians, British, Americans (WWII). We were also invaded later by Iraq. No more! We have to be able to defend ourselves by all means necessary. UN and her resolutions are not going to cause us to commit suicide.

As for Iran & Shia, you are just wrong. I know that many non-religious Iranians have grafted their identity to pre-Islamic Iran but it is neither historically nor sociologically accurate.

Iran has as much to do with Ancient Iran as modern Italy with Rome or Israel with Ancient Israel.

You are not insulting me; and my ancestors were ancient Iranians, Arabs, (rapist) Mongols, and assorted invaders. I do not mean what you mean by them being great. Achamenids were barbarians who invaded more civilized neighbours and learnt of them. And the Sassanids were a corrupt clergy & nobility enforcing a caste system similar to India's.

Iranian state is based on the twin ethno-linguistic populations of Azeri Turk & Persians (with assorted other groups). What glues us together is Shia Islam and the idea of Iran. I would say 90% Shia, 10% Iran.

pen Name

Anonymous said...

Eventually, she became disillusioned and felt that the Islamic revolution was superficial and hypocritical.

"Right now," she says, "I feel more American. That is because I feel Iran is still in turmoil. It's been in the West where I have been able to step back and find myself, but I am finally proud to say my name is Iran."

Naj said...

Pen,

I don't disagree with you; except in one thing.

That Iran's Shiism "itself" roots in Iran's ancient religions and state.

I think the two centuries AFTER the Arab invasion need to be taken just as seriously as the post Safavid "Iran"ification!

I also reject your blanket statements about what "shiite-identity" in Iran means. Yes Iranian muslims are all Ali-Abolfazl-hossein-Reza lovers; but that has far less to do with "islamic" identity, than has to do with spiritual iconography.

I dare say Iranians love "Ali/Reza/Hossein" far more than Islam!
And I dare say this is precisely why arab fundamentalists hate Persians!

Anonymous said...

Myths of Zionism

Anonymous said...

naj:

You are exaggerating.

Of course we are all Muslims. Youy see it is like a layered cake with many layers. On top of it is the cream: the martyrs of Shia.

pen Name

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 4:59 AM:

We were given a gift of highly intelligent, competent, and educated youth in Iran.

We could not create the conditions in Iran to take advantage of these heavenly blessings.

So we lost them to foreigners; we could not keep them in Iran since there was no scope for their useful activity.

We did not deserve this youth; we have been at fault.

For every human being, there is only one life to live; if one is not careful one can easily waste his life.

We were telling our gifted youth to stay in Iran and waste their lives. Well, thank God that they did not listen to us and left Iran for places where they could exercise their talents.

We are the guilty in Iran, driving Muslim and non-Muslim Iranians away from their ancestral home. We are the ones who trampled on the fruits that God had given us and kicked God's gifts in the teeth. We have been incometent and negligent. We did not make iran home of all Muslims.

That's why no Muslim wants to live in Iran; they emigrate to US, to South America, to EU.

May be God wants the Light of Islam to spread - I som times take solace in that.

With Malice Towards None,

pen Name

Naj said...

Pen,

I want to live in Iran. I just wish "they" would leave my faith to me; and to not make me wear it on my sleeve, or my on head.

You will not find any group of diasporic people who are as nostalgic as Iranians are about "home."

I have Bahai friends who are deprived of
many rights in Iran, and who still wish to live in Iran and dream of going back. I have NEVER been able to overcome the shame that the BEST student in my class was KICKED out of school because she refused to denounce her faith.

Yet, I am impressed with the stubbornness with which the new generation of Iranians, the ones who do not have the financial means of going abroad, the ones who cannot cross the visa barriers into MIT, are contributing to home-growing of technology.

I visited a medical university institutions in Tehran recently. I was told about how Americans have sold them a certain machine, but have not sold them equipment needed to make that machine run--because an amlifier may be used in nuclear technology!!!!!!!!!!! The Iranians BUILT it from scratch! Working day and night! And also with help from scientists around the wrld who do not subscribe to the narrowminded version of American paranoia!

I am afraid that the US fears the potential of this generation of youth far more than its nuclear bomb. It is not the bomb they want to stop, it is the "industrial revolution" in the heart of the middle east; in the most sanctioned, most isolated country f that region.

People talk about the addiction problem in Iran; about a jobless youth and all the social problems associated with that ... I call that nonesense ...

All will be well ... soon ... there is just no way back.

Anonymous said...

naj:

"Built it from scratch" - so now we know how to do that too.

It is like what Khomeini said" " This War is a blessing!".

Ya Abolfazl

pen Name

Naj said...

I beg to differ.
No war is a blessing.
But we are raised to be a stoic bunch. All that "Elm behtar ast ya servat?" compositions have paid off! ;)

Translation:
"Knowledge is better or Wealth?", starting grade three, until grade 12, every stdent in Iran gets two write one composition on this subject; AT LEAST once a year! :)

Anna said...

I always like the dialogs between pen Name, Naj and David very much ... and I learn lot. Thank you!

nunya said...

Naj,
"liberal fundamentalism" might possibly be a contradiction in terms, but being a liberal myself, I'll keep an open mind :)

Thanks for defending me, I appreciate it. I do NOT support the Bush Regime. The Bush Crime family has a long history of making money on wars, and it makes me sick.

Since my father was a computer programmer I know that the electronic voting machines are making it impossible for the American people's will to carried out thrugh their "elected representatives."
(See Greg Palast, an American man who cannot report inside his own country)

Amro left a comment on my blog. Incomprehensible, but so far, well behaved. I really don't care if he behaves himself, I can handle what ever he chooses to dish out.

for anonymous, yes, my comment was meant to be provocative. If you saw it as approval of American Foreign policy, I'm sorry. As an American I can tell you that the foreign policy decisions of my government are made without my approval or (sadly) knowledge. I am not rich, therefore, my input is generally ignored. Our K-12 history texts are a joke. Filled with nationalistic rhetoric and propaganda. Even second graders (age 7) hate "social studies" (which is what they call history class in second grade) class because they see that it's baloney.

Naj said...

Hi Anna, Nunya ... sorry will have to be short; swamped. Glad these discussions are creating understanding.

I do remember a time when Pen Name and I used to throw fists at eachother. His contribution to this blog, however is most appreciated.

Speaking of liberal fundamentalism ... yeah I meant to be provocative too ;)
I consider myself a liberal as well. And sometime in the past, I do remember my impatience, contempt and arrogance towards those whom I considred non-liberal!

My "fundamentalism" rested in the heart of my arrogance! (And I battle me hard to keep it knocked down.)

nunya said...

Naj,

I don't know if it is an American trend toward reductionism that motivates me personally. My next door neighbor has over twenty children, with multiple partners and he's American. That's too many to support financially, OR to even raise properly. Frankly, I can't keep track of them all. I know how much of the world's resources goes into raising one American child compared to other countries. While I am grateful for all the "stuff" available for my kid, it also breaks my heart to know how many children die for lack of basic requirements for life all over the planet. With more and more people competing for the basics: Food, Water, Shelter, I don't see an answer for the human race outside the realm of reducing human population. I would like to see it happen peacefully, but I fear that (some) MEN don't know how to solve the problems of overpopulation peacefully. I am grateful to be afforded the opportunity to only have ONE child. I had a pretty good idea that when my one child was born, that the child would survive. When women have fears that their children won't survive, they have MORE children, exacerbating the problems, but a perfectly natural and instinctive response.

Naj said...

Nunya,

We did discuss the problem of over-population before.

Currently, the first world is facing a negative birth-rate.

There are baby boomers with their generous pockets, growing older but wish to be younger and thus willing to finance the science and technology of "death-defiance"

If you are talking about regimenting the birth towards population-reduction; then you should also be regimenting the death; i.e. people need to be let die of NATURAL causes such as "aging"!

The developing countries such as China, Iran, India do have population control programs. In Iran, women are given free birth control. Abortion is illegal; but pregnancy control is not.

Islam does not advocate "reproduction"; much unlike the catholic church! In fact, Islam has detailed description of a man's financial duty towards his family. So, the population-problem is NOT that of the Middle East.

Also, different cultures have different support systems in place. Take Hasidic Jews, for example. To the New Yorkers, they might appear like an ant colony; with countless children and women dressed in dark uniforms! But their idea of "comfort" and "opportunity" is perhaps very different than that of you and I.

I think, before pointing fingers at over-crowding refugees, we are better off pointing the finger at the systems in which we comfortably live, our comfort owed to the UNEQUAL distribution of wealth and resources of the world.

It is not OVER population, but greed that is our MAIN problem ...

Anonymous said...

Over-population is a red herring. Populations in EU, Iran, China, Japan, Singapore, and Korea will go down before this century is out.

In certain ways, I envy the man who has 20 children; he can do what I cannot do.

A bit of Islam would be of great help here; regulating this type of activity and limiting it to at most 4 wives.


pen Name

Naj said...

LOL!

I'm sure the "stress" of four wives is quite counter-productive ;)

Anonymous said...

naj:

You are quite correct about the stress - even the Prophet was driven away from his home because of the problems he had with his wives. He stayed with Abu Bakr and sent a message to his wives to either get along or else it was over. And of course, they behaved better and he went back.

But my point is the dispensation that Islam grants men to take on more than one wife; legally and over-board. Of course, then the man would be legally responsible for the up-keep of the wives and any children. Also there is inheritance and other such factors.

The case of this man with 20 children is a case of sexual and familial anarchy.

And I cannot understand how the women could accpet this type of dispensation in the West - they have very little recourse beyond child support. Such women must not be that smart.

pen Name

Anonymous said...

limiting it to at most 4 wives.

What about "Mutah (pleasure) marriage which is common in Iran, a bit of a cottage industry -- which they are working on exporting. For a handful of dates (gives a whole new meaning of "dating") you can purchase the services of a "temporary wife" (which makes it perfectly legal, although no paperwork is necessary) as young as 9 years old. The marriage can be for any period as short as an hour (I doubt Ah!mydinnerjacket could use the whole hour anyway)."

Anonymous said...

It is like what Khomeini said" " This War is a blessing!".

This is your Khomeini

and this is your ahmadinejad

Anonymous said...

Tehran, 1 June (AKI) - Ayatollah Ahmad Jannati, a close aide of Iran's supreme leader Seyyed Ali Khamenei, and the head of the powerful Guardians' Council watchdog, said Friday. Tehran remains "anti-American and a foe of the United States" despite the first high level talks between the two countries in three decades which took place earlier this month in Baghdad. Jannati, who was addressing faithful during prayers at Tehran's university, stressed that the "talks in Baghdad do not change in the least the anti-American policies of the Islamic Republic."

"If the Americans want to guarantee a certain level of security to their citizens they must pull out of Iraq and abandon the region," he added.

David said...

Naj, I appreciate your words regarding the Holocaust. It is a terrible stain on the history of humanity. It is, however, not the only terrible stain. The more that I learn about history, the more I see repeated patterns of inhumanity. The Nazis were an evil blight, but I think that there were other blights that were just as bad, or perhaps even worse. I wonder how many millions lost their lives to several centuries of Mongol conquest and tyranny? I know that something like 800,000 people were murdered in the Mongol destruction of Baghdad. Where would Islam be today if the ancient scholars of Baghdad had continued to flourish? Afterall, it was Islamic scholars, scientists, and engineers who helped keep the light of civilization burning during the European Dark Ages.

David said...

Sorry Pen, but I have no interest in reading anything by people who would deny the validity of Anne Frank's writings. I will however thank you for bringing up the subject. It has been years since I read anything about Anne Frank. The following article was a good refresher course for me, and I learned a few new things from reading it:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Frank

I agree with you that a nuclear-free Middle East is a pipe dream, at least in the near future. However, I believe it is very important for the future of humanity to reduce and eventually eliminate nuclear weapons.

As for nations defending themselves, I believe that the best defense is cooperation not confrontation. Wars do not solve anything, they just get a lot of people killed.

Naj said...

Pen,

Sorry but I don't think Muslim women's rights are properly
- granted
- respected
- fair!

Now I know that it is not only the Islam that discriminates against women; Christianity and judaism are even worse.

The laws for women need to be re-written; and that will happen only when women have released themselves from the ropes put around them by a) patriarchy and b) feminism.

Once Iran has produced its female "mojtahed"; and once she has written her own book of "ahkaam", then I will take a look at what Islam has to offer.

Re 4 wives, this is only a valid scenario in a war-ridden society, where the number of women is larger than men (who are at war or killed.) Mohammad married a lot of widows, right?

Naj said...

anonymous with quotation from Jannati
I'm sure you can find better quotes from "Mesbaah Yazdi" ...

these people are obsolete, and by grace of nature, should be joining their maker soon!

No on on earth takes them serious, other than their handful of followers, who are ironically empowered by Washington's anti-Iranian rhetoric/policy.

Naj said...

David,

Re mongols ...
There is a huge difference between barbarian who attack the "civilized" wolrd (as mongols and arabs did in the 13th and 6th century) and the civilized world attacking the rest of the humanity (as Germany did twice.)

I can always forgive the nomadic mongols and the bedouine arabs for eying the wealth of the neighboring empires for expansion of their own power. But I cannot forgive a civilized nations quest against humanity.

Speaking of Mongol's atrocity; let's remember that he wanted to do diplomacy with the ARROGANT kings of Khawrazmid empire in Iran! He, like our very own Georgy, killed his envoys. Also, a lot of Chengis fights, and his triumph to create a nation, were motivated by his rebellious against the oppression of his neighboring empires.

I call these lessons of history.

Naj said...

By the way, I also see little difference between Mongol's conquest and the Spanish conquest of the Inca and Aztec.

The dark ages of Europe, my friend, would not have ended without exploitation of a whole lot of habitants of earth!

Europe's age of enlightenment and industrial revolution is built on the blood of others!!

And then Hitler came ... white washed the rest ... and let us forget the extermination of native Americans; and the history of slavery to which America owes its might ...

Anonymous said...

anonymous:

About "Mutah", a.k.a. "sigheh" in Persian:

- It is a Shia only practice; the Sunni Muslims do not recognize this form of marriage.

- The marriage contract is just like the usual marriage contract excepting that it will automatically expire at the agreed time.

- A woman cannot marry for 4 months after the expiration of the temporary mrriage so as to eliminate issues of pregnancy and paternity.

- Man is responsible for the upkeep of the wife.

-Man is responsible for the children (if any comes out of union)

- While the woman cannot inherit from the man, the children will.

I think that temporary marriage is another Shia Muslim practice that can be usefully employed by other, non Shia.

For example, in the West, there is a fair amount of premarital sex that can, with this type of marriage, be regulated. Just think of all the college students that could make such contracts while in school.

In fact, one of my acquaintances in US approached an American woman with a pre-nuptial contract that essentially was a sigheh marriage contract. And she accepted that.

Another example where this practice can be useful is the Far East; China, Japan, and Korea where concubinage has been practiced for centuries.

Islam recognizes the Joy & Pleasure of sexual union and tries to regulate it.

pen Name

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 5:37 PM:

And your point?

pen Name

Anonymous said...

David:

Calling Alfred L. a Holocaust denier is highly inaccurate and a sign of intellectual laziness.

But your reaction clearly supports my point; Shoah cannot be discussed dispassionately in EU & North America.

Mongols, like the Germans, wanted to enslave the rest of the world and lord over them. Even though they (the Mongols) professed belief in the Great Sky God, that was a god for Mongols. Neither Mongols nor NAZIs believed in the essential worth of the individual in God' eye. NAZIs and Mongols considered only themselves human beings; every one else was sub-human since they did not belong to the superior race.

The NAZIs were only the culmination of the Enlightenment Tradition that left God to seek a replacement for Him. And the only replacement turned out to be the Worship of Collective Powers of Man - a form of idol-worship & blasphemy.

EU is now in the grips of a new form of hedonism, and North America is not that far behind. And they still are pursuing the chimera of a Godless ethical system.

States, as centers of power, are involved in a zero sum game. The more powerful a state is, the worse the game is becoming. Which often leads into war!

Plato said:" Only the dead have seen the end of war."

pen Name

Anonymous said...

naj:

There is enough ambiguity and flexibility in the Quran that many of the rights that you aspire to can be obtained within the strictures of Islamic Tradition.

However, the Femo-NAZI project of absolute equality between the sexes cannot be realized within Islam. Quran specifies how much a woman can inherit - that cannot be tampered with.

At any rate, the pursuit of absolute equality is both a chimera and a great harm to women.

I do not think that our approaches towards polygamy in Islam are that different.

I consider it a dispensation that must be limited and regulated under the Law; just like Freedom of Speech does not mean that one can scream "Fire!" with impunity in a crowded movie house! Now that is a minority view; most Muslim consider that to be an absolute right.

I also disagree with you about having female Doctors of Religious Sciences making a lot of difference. There are already women studying these subjects in Qom but I have not heard any substantial voice of dissent from them.

Also, you are wrong about the so-called patriarchy. Human societies have always been patriarchic; it has to do with the male endocrine system.

And in the West, women have had the vote for 100 years and the Western people have been the most violent since then. What positive difference women’s participation in the politics has had in the West over the last 100 years?

I also disagree with your view on the Aztecs and the Spanish Conquest. The Spaniards, unlike the Mongols, were not there to kill everyone and enslave the women and children. They wanted to get the gold and the land. And while there were a lot of atrocities by the young bored Spanish men there was a constant flow of edicts, orders, encyclicals etc. coming from Madrid and Rome for the protection of the native peoples. Many of them were ignored but both the Spanish Crown and Pope were trying to control the violence against the native peoples of South America and establish the Rule of Law.

pen Name

Naj said...

Pen,

Just quickly:

The reason for absence of dissent among female doctors of religion is ... well, they are overpowered withing an EXTREMELY patriarch system! Those who are against it, cannot join in! Simple!

Witch burning!!

I totally disagree with the notion of "equality" of men and women. Women are superior to men, because they can bear children and men cannot!

As such, I am totally opposed to Qoran-imposed distribution of inheritance. Why cannot it be tampered with and modified to reflect the realities of MODERN times? This is where one falls back in the trap of religious "fundamentalism", in my honest opinion.

Re mongols versus spaniards ... every invasion starts by the quest of gold ... I see little difference in nature, between the imposed superiority of the Roman church/God and the imposed superiority of the German uberman.

Naj said...

Also Pen,

The reason for the FAILURE of the "feminist" project of the previous century has been the FACT that women have been trying to EMULATE men!

Look at that Hillary Clinton, Condy Rice, Maggie Thatcher! These are NOT women, these are cross-dressing men!

Anonymous said...

naj:

The reason that you cannot modify the inheritence laws of Islam is that those are enshrined in the Quran.

And Uran is considered the actual Word of God. Just like in Christianity Jesus is considered the Word of God.

I realize you do not consider yourself a Muslim, therefore I fail to see why you care about how Muslims treat one another.

I stand by what I said about Spaniards vs. Mongols. What city did the Spaniards massacare in America?

I never said that men are superior only that for reasons of human male physiology human societies, to my knowledge, have always been male-dominated.

I think you should be interested in dialogue with those women who are studying the religious science of Islam. I think it will be a good idea for you to speak to them and find out what they think of feminism, women, men, and Islam. I think you are dismissing them as unworthy of your intellectual engagement.

Western feminism has been anti-Male. Of course it will fail.

pen Name

Naj said...

And [Q]Uran is considered the actual Word of God. Just like in Christianity Jesus is considered the Word of God.

I refuse to believe in a god that speaks human language; and only in hebrew-based languages too! My creator, speaks to me in the language of its creations; even if they are fall(en) leaves.

I realize you do not consider yourself a Muslim, therefore I fail to see why you care about how Muslims treat one another.

I don't; as long as they do not force the rest of the world, and their neighbors to treat eachother in "their" way. But I come from a Muslim society and family, and I want to be able to find a common ground to live in peace with people I love, regardless of their faith, and regardless of their religious practices. I just want to respect and to be respected, without needing to convince or be convinced.

I do not consider myself a muslim, but I have defended Islam plenty! Religions did not set out to be complicated monsterous cults of a vengeful, discriminating, blood thirsty divine. And I respect the message of "peace, respect and care for the creator's creations" in every religion.

Spaniards massacred the (terrorist) insurgents, so to speak ;)

never said that men are superior only that for reasons of human male physiology human societies, to my knowledge, have always been male-dominated.

Yes, true. However, the need for male-domination has arisen for the "need" for building defense forces, to protect the "home", which is always set up by the woman.

Re western feminism, I really think it has done a great job in breaking certain taboos in a male-dominated civilization; but it is time for it to recognize the women's specific needs, or else it will collapse onto itself.

The problem with the current feminism is that it DEMAND of women to be able to do ALL that men do, and more! If a woman doesn't have a "career", she is considered a loser! Well that is a problem! The industrialized world will only come to grasp this when they will not have sufficient "native" workforce to run their economies. And then they will be at the merci of the liberally reproducing "aliens" :)

I think you are dismissing them as unworthy of your intellectual engagement.

Absolutely not! The only people I dismiss of intellectual engagement is the superstitious and the khaleh-zanak.

(Pen, I have a deep foot in a deeply religious family; the one who is often dismissed as an ungodly liberal and unworthy of discursive engagement is I.)

Anonymous said...

به گزارش ايسنا، مريم قنبري، فارغ‌التحصيل دانشگاه علامه، با بيان اين كه اگر صيغه به معناي توافق طرفيني و برابر باشد، كاركرد خوبي دارد، اظهار داشت: جواناني كه با مشكلات اقتصادي روبه‌رو بوده و نيز در رفع نيازهاي جنسي خود به دليل تاخير در ازدواج با مشكل مواجهند، و يا آن دسته از جواناني كه اساسا به دلايلي تمايلي به ازدواج دائم ندارند، مي‌توانند از اين راهكار استفاده كنند.

وي برخي ازدواجهاي دائم را به دليل فاصله‌گيري از اصول انساني و تقويت رويكرد مادي آن، به تجارت پيچيده تشبيه كرد و گفت: دست كم در ازدواج موقت جواناني كه به هر دليل خواهان ازدواج دائم نيستند، اين مشكلات كمتر بوده، استقلال زن در آن بيشتر رعايت مي‌شود و حتي پتانسيل استقلال اقتصادي زن به دليل وابسته نبودن به مرد، بيشتر تحقق مي‌يابد؛‌ هرچند برخي ممكن است آن را به زيان زن بدانند.

وي براي حل يكطرفه بودن حق جدايي در ازدواج موقت پيشنهاد كرد: يا در صيغه‌نامه‌ها يا از طرق ديگر، حق بذل مدت به دختران آموزش داده شود.

pen Name

Naj said...

Thank you Pen.

I have said before, that it is not Islam that's chaining Persian's sexual freedom, it's their stoicism! Under-belly is unsacred in the Persian culture, and thus much of anti-arab, anti-Islam attacks are directed at Arab's (and by association, Islam's) sexual fervor!!!

One of the most notorious "qualities" of the clergy in Iran is their fixation on sex! And people dislike it: "Why not read resaaleh? because it's full of pornography!!"

Seegheh is considered a demeaning experience, in a society so devoted to "virgin brides".

But, now that educated women are talking about it, I see the sexual revolution of Iran beginning too! That's just a natural outcome of becoming pragmatic! And I am all for it.

Anonymous said...

naj:

You wrote: "My creator, speaks to me in the language of its creations; even if they are fall(en) leaves."

Yes, indeed!

There is the Quran and then there is the Greater Quran (al Quran Al Azeem) that is with God.

You are not saying anything that is is contradiction with the Quran and the Islamic Tradition.

As for the "need for domination" it is part and parcel of being a Man; without it there can be no sexual act nor any children from sexual union.

Accept men the way they are or leave them alone.

The graduates of the Islamic Schools are not khale-zanak. Although personally I find most Doctors of Religion without depth.

pen Name

Naj said...

:))

"Accept the men the way they are, or leave them alone!"

I will give you a trophy if you find a woman on this earth who is not trying to "fix" her man! Remember what Eve did to poor Adam?!

David said...

Naj,

You make a good point about the difference between the Mongols and the Germans. I know that the Vikings did not consider their victims to be human beings. I suppose that the Mongols could have held the same views about non-Mongols (I really don't know anything about their cultural and mythological beliefs). Also, I never knew that Chengis Khan ever attempted to be diplomatic. I have to wonder though, did he really try to make peace, or was it just a tactic to further his dreams of expansion? As I see it, regardless of his motivations, Chengis was a mass murderer. If he had died in his crib as an infant, the world would be a very different place today. Would the world be a better place? I don't know.

The Spanish conquistadores were pirates. They robbed, raped, and enslaved millions of native Americans, but I don't think they were ever motivated to exterminate entire peoples as the Mongols did. However, they brought diseases to the Americas that the natives had very little immunity to. Some anthropologists have estimated that 90 percent of North American natives died of diseases that were introduced by the Spanish, and later by the English and French. The Central and South American natives from highly urban cultures did not die in such great numbers from the introduced diseases. Perhaps their long history of high density urban civilization helped them to build stronger immune systems.

You are quite right that the wealth of many nations in Europe and in America is rooted in the exploitation of other technologically inferior peoples. It seems that it is basic to human nature to dehumanize and abuse fellow human beings.

I read through your debate about the rights of women. I strongly believe that women should have equal rights under the law as men. I am very familiar with the lack of equal rights and protections in Iran for women. You make the point that men and women are different, and that women should not have to behave like men. Well, in general, I agree with you. However, there is a spectrum of masculinity vs. feminity in both men and women. Some men are quite feminine, while some women are quite masculine. Why don't we just say that men and women should both be allowed the freedom to live up to their potential, whatever that may be? Gender based discrimination should simply be eliminated. Where religious belief systems have entrenched such discrimination, these belief systems must be modified, or at least, the rule of law must prevail over the rule of religious bigotry.


Pen,

There has never been anything lazy about my intellectual capacity. I have always taken the position of show me the evidence before I will believe what I am told. I reason with logic, not emotionality. I am not always right when I take a position, however my positions are always based on the facts as I understand them. When I am wrong, I will gladly admit my error and thank my teacher for correcting my knowledge base.

As far as I am concerned, regarding some aspects of the Holocaust, there is simply nothing to discuss. The number of human beings murdered is not difficult to accurately tabulate. The Germans recorded many details about their victims. Those records still exist. I suppose that the motivations of the Nazi leaders is a subject for debate. Also, there are important lessons to be learned regarding how they came to power and why tens of millions of German people became willing participants in their atrocities. The reasons that other countries did little to nothing to help save those millions of human beings has been discussed for decades, and probably will still be talked about for centuries to come.

The article about Anne Frank that I provided the link for contains an extensive discussion of various individuals who maintained that Anne's diary was a fabrication, as you believe. Those assertions were challenged in court and the diary was repeatedly found to be genuine. If you want to continue to hold the belief that it is false go right ahead. I am done talking about it.

Naj said...

However, there is a spectrum of masculinity vs. feminity in both men and women. Some men are quite feminine, while some women are quite masculine. Why don't we just say that men and women should both be allowed the freedom to live up to their potential, whatever that may be?

Exactly!

Naj said...

re Diary ... unfortunately I have not read that; I know it is a part of school curriculum in Europe.

An autobiography, and diary, for me, does not carry the same accuracy and importance as the actual German numbers do.

Yet, reconstruction of (national) identity through (narrative) historiography is a very common practice.

Anonymous said...

I refuse to believe in a god
I come from a Muslim society and family,

And then

to live in peace with people I love, regardless of their faith, and regardless of their religious practices. I just want to respect and to be respected, without needing to convince or be convinced.…….

Did “Islam” having problem with all what you said?
Did your “Quran” tell you different from what you said?

So you “ I don't; as long as they do not force the rest of the world,

Then you said:

I have said before, that it is not Islam that's chaining Persian's sexual freedom, it's their stoicism! Under-belly is unsacred in the Persian culture, and thus much of anti-arab, anti-Islam attacks are directed at Arab's (and by association, Islam's) sexual fervor!!!

I am not “Muslim” until Islam ……. Fixed… then its Not the Islam that cause Persians problems……. then I defend Islam Plenty of times!!………….

What a pathetic claims and irony here

I do not consider myself a Muslim, but I have defended Islam plenty! Religions did not set out to be complicated monsterous cults of a vengeful, discriminating, blood thirsty divine. And I respect the message of "peace, respect and care for the creator's creations" in every religion.

What on earth this an irony here some speaks just a complete “Rubbish” No religions on this Earth have a problem as such the problem in THOS AYAHALLAH “who are “complicated monsterous cults of a vengeful, discriminating, blood thirsty divine” go kick them out and free your WOMEN

If a woman doesn't have a "career", she is considered a loser! Well that is a problem! The industrialized world will only come to grasp this when they will not have sufficient "native" workforce to run their economies.

Oh yah from some one got paid from “Social Welfare” have no a “"career" setting home trying lecturing us about “Women Workforce” she herself said not “I am not a feminist;.” In her “About ME”
Then we can say, she is “NOT a Woman”, she is “cross-dressing men!” like she claims that about other Women..

Your Jannati is a Guardian Council Secretary Ayatollah Ahmad Jannati

What a Guardian Council” a bunch of idiots

Anonymous said...

David:

Your statements are conforming to what I suggested earlier, that Shoah cannot be discussed in North America or EU. One has to accept this semi-Religion. Well, I don't and courts of law cannot make me change my mind, only scholarship will. And I am not even denying Shoah, only question its dimensions as a form of propaganda.

While the status of women in Iran leaves much to be desired, I am glad that it is improving. And I am also happier still that the legal improvement in the Law is not follwoing the Radical Egalitarianism of US & EU - a dead-end for women as well as men.

Why do I call it a dead-end? Because of this: when a man goes to a woman he has to be generous to her financially and emotionally. This is what women crave. Equality will not give women what they want because of this fundamental pyschic need that is embedded in the female - just like Love which is her nature (but not male's.)


"However, there is a spectrum of masculinity vs. feminity in both men and women. Some men are quite feminine, while some women are quite masculine. Why don't we just say that men and women should both be allowed the freedom to live up to their potential, whatever that may be?"

I cannot accept the spectrum idea.

Consider: During the gestation period of the male fetus, there are spikes in the concentration of testosterone in the amniotic fluid spikes quite a few times. The first such spike corresponds to the differentiation of testicles. No one, to my knowledge, has any clue as to the effect of the other spikes. These spikes and lack thereof for female fetuses, leads me to suspect that there are physiological differences in the way the brain is structured and the way it interacts with the body between men and women. Thus, in my opinion, the male and female psyches are also different.


While these statements seem attractive in their raw and undifferentiated form, closer scrutiny reveals a bewildering array of questions, issues, and problems. For example:


While the idea of “freedom” is attractive one has to ask: “Free from what?” and “Free to do what?”


Moreover, the idea of “potential” that is used here is problematic; just how do you know what the potential of any human being is? And what would you do if you find out that that person’s full potential is to hurt other human beings?


You will have to articulate all of these.

Pen Name

Naj said...

To Rude Anonymous:

Dear, I told you I am on welfare and I am actually mentally disabled.
Why don't you go play somewhere else with smart Iranians? :))

Naj said...

Pen,

re: potential ... you may be interested to take a look at the nature-nurture literature.

Naj said...

rather nature-nurture/gene-environment interactions.

nunya said...

Naj,

I can see that we do not agree on the issue of "overpopulation" and that is fine. The world population is not in decline, though:

The world's current (overall as well as natural) growth rate is about 1.14%, representing a doubling time of 61 years.

I am aware EVERY day of the wealth inequality. I don't watch American news, I watch the BBC, and go online for other sources.

The reasons that I press the point are (back to my other obsessions) oil and gas. Fertilizers, insectisides, and transportation (of crops) are heavily dependent on oil and gas.

The availability of those energy supplies is what has allowed for the massive population increase after World War II. (And advances in medicine) Not only are those energy supplies finite, the overuse of them is what is causing the heating up of the planet. That and deforestation, usually for agricultural use.

Global warming, whether you believe it is man made, or a natural process WILL wreak havoc on human populations. I'd just as soon that I not have a whole lot of descendents who will suffer through that.

As long as there seems to be no way to check the power of the oil and gas cartels, the least I can do is to reduce my footprint on the earth. My family and friends don't do a whole lot of breeding.

Naj said...

Nunya
=================
I think I stated that I agree with you: "our problem is Greed!"
(even greed for love of children and thus making 20 of them!)

nunya said...

Naj, yes, I think we can definitely agree on the greed factor.

I pissed off the neighbor when I told him what I really thought of his breeding patterns. Unless you have a family farm, or family business, why do you have to create a whole village?

Naj said...

:)
If I were your neighbor, I'd not get offended; I would just shrug and nicely say: "None of your business, honey!" and go make another baby ;)

nunya said...

He doesn't support any of them. He's "disabled." Govt pension, govt subsidized apartment. The govt is supporting many of them.

Back to the greed thing, John Perkins has a new book coming out:

The Secret History of the American Empire, Economic Hit Men, Jackals, and the Truth about Global Corruption

Anonymous said...

I told you I am on welfare and I am actually mentally disabled. Why don't you go play somewhere else with smart Iranians

“mentally disabled” then you have a lovely husband!
So did he take care of his woman as an Iranian culture and treasure “male-dominated civilization”?

Naj read this may be helping you:

Morning, Mr. President. I have a more general question about the United States' work to democratize the rest of the world. Many have viewed the United States' effort to democratize the world -- especially nations in the Middle East -- as an imposition or invasion on their sovereign rights. Considering that it was, in fact, the Prophet Mohammed who established the first known constitution in the world -- I'm referring to the constitution he wrote for the city of Medina --and that his life and the principles outlined in his constitution, such as the championing of the welfare of women, children and the poor, living as an equal among his people, dissolving disputes between the warring clans in Arabia, giving any man or woman in parliament the right to vote and guaranteeing respect for all religions, ironically parallel those principles that we hold most precious in our own Constitution. I'm wondering how might your recently formed Iraq Study Group under the U.S. Institute for Peace explore these striking similarities to forge a new relationship with Iraqis and educate Americans about the democratic principles inherent in Islam?

David,
just say that men and women should both be allowed the freedom to live up to their potential, whatever that may be? Gender based discrimination should simply be eliminated. Where religious belief systems have entrenched such discrimination, these belief systems must be modified, or at least, the rule of law must prevail over the rule of religious bigotry.

David, marvellous and well put, totally agree.


pen Name, to me the Mutah Marriages is a sort of paid sexes no difference.
This led us to say the Iranian’s social problem one major factor is these marriages and the born babies ending on Iran streets and poverty

Anonymous said...

pen Name,
Although not a part of Quranic teachings, the custom of temporary marriage is still practiced among the Shiites of Iran, it’s legalized prostitution

senior Iranian clerics for solving the country's problem of street prostitution is causing widespread debate. The plan would create so-called "chastity houses" for destitute women where men could marry them for a few hours

Naj said...

anonymous,

Maybe you should go to exile in Holland. There, you can nag as much as you wish about legalized drug use and legalized prostution; and enjoy a few beers ... huh? what do you say? ;)

Anonymous said...

anonymous:

In regards to sighe, I stand by what I have written; abuse of a right or practice by evil men & women does not make the practice itself intrinsically good or bad. As I said, on US college campuses, sighe could be quite useful. And I believe sighe could be an attractive solution for certain sticky situations such as Clinton-Lweinsky.

In Tehran, for example, there are many many educated un-married women over 30 that would agree to be a second wfe and a sighe. Clealry, there is something that they can gain.

Calling sighe "legalized prostitution" will not make it so - there is the "od-deh" period which is 4 months long and effectively prevents it from becoming so.

I am not against woemen working, learning, etc. I am against these ideological statements that David and others make that have their roots in the European Enlightenment Tradition. It disagree with the vehement anti-religion aspects of that tradition.

pen Nmae

Naj said...

It disagree with the vehement anti-religion aspects of that tradition.

anti-religious?

or maybe areligious would be a better term?

and "vehement"?

I don't think David's statements are vehemently anti-religious.

Anonymous said...

naj:

I was referring to the Enlightenment project and not to David.

The East Asian Tradition (China, Japan, Korea) is areligious in the sense that we in Western Eurasia undertsnad religion.

Enlightenment was always anti-religious.

pen Name

Anonymous said...

Maybe you should go to exile in Holland

Why should I? I don’t have problem as you, you living in UK (I guess) and support Iran regime with its all bitterness. The fact is you should to Iran your loved regime…

Holland is a western state prod with freedom and respect of humans whoever is, it’s not IRH Islamic Republic of Holland …Naj!!!!

Naj if you are so passionate a bout Mutta'a Marriages/ Iran’s law, you living in a western country, its looks so naive that someone living in an environments with all enjoyments and in same time talking differently about a country that had a bad records of human rights and so bad corrupted regime that can do nothing to the nations more than giving them a hard time on excuse of “Islamic” laws, please be honest and stop hid your support for Mullah.

pen Name,
Whatever you try to give explanations, you end with same acts as the "prostitution" there is no difference, if you ask mindful person he will tells you same, it dose not matter how many men or women support or object its exactly like "prostitution" some support or in favour and some oppose it.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous:

Calling sighe prostitution will not make it so.

You are speaking of things about which you do not know anything.

Muttah/Sighe can be used for ill or for good. Like all other human institutions.

pen Name

Anonymous said...

You are speaking of things about which you do not know anything.

Are there any secrets we dont know?

What more can you say?

The couple could have gotten married for as short a time as a few minutes or as long as 99 years. They could have specified whether and how much money Maryam would be paid as a kind of dowry, or how much time they would spend together. Instead, they decided on a straightforward contract of six months, which they renewed again and again.

The only conclusion for using Mutah marriages is a part of Mullah's pleasures and for their political bribes for Iranians! Read this:

Shahla Sherkat, editor of Zanan, a feminist monthly said:

"First, relations between young men and women will become a little bit freer, "Second, they can satisfy their sexual needs. Third, sex will become depoliticized. Fourth, they will use up some of the energy they are putting into street demonstrations. Finally, our society's obsession with virginity will disappear."

Anonymous said...

Anonymous:

You used the word "Dowry". No such thing in Islamic Law; there is the divorce indemnity "mahr" but that is not applicable in sighe.

And I do not see what is your problem with this; if you think only Mullahs are using sighe you are dreaming.

Boy wants girl, girl wants boy, gthey sign a pre-nuptial agreement that for a limited duration.

Why is enjoying our sexuality within the strictures of the Islamic Law wrong?

Is loving bad?

I think not.

And why do you keep on using the term ?Muttah" which is common among teh Arabs?

pen Name

Anonymous said...

Why is enjoying our sexuality within the strictures of the Islamic Law wrong?

Its not a part of Quranic teachings

Enjoying your sexuality but do not use religions to cover your sexuality enjoyment, man what's your problem penName?


why do you keep on using the term ?Muttah" which is common among teh Arabs?


Oh I see!! Did Arabic causing panic to you, The Quran in Arabic isn't?

Call whatever name you like, means nothing here don't bother, then call it "prostitution"

Naj said...

Anonymous,

I agree with you that

religion
state
government
bloggers
commentators of blogs
the cat of the back street
and the blue cheese in my fridge

HAVE NO BUSINESS IN THE BEDROOMS OF PEOPLE. Sexual activity should belong to the realm of medicine and psychology, not theology!

If someone wants to prostitute himself/herself, it NONE OF OUR BUSINESS!

Now I like to suggest a closure to this stale argument and suggest the "grumpy" anonymous, to do what he wishes without nagging all the time to others.

No one is forcing you to do a sigheh or mot'ah, so don't.

Anonymous said...

Naj & Annonymous:

U are both wrong.

Without Law, we are like animals unto each other. And our Law comes out of the Revelations of the Prophets.

As for "bedroom" being outside of the domain of either Religious Law or Secular Law - I suppose you will then have to admit that there is nothing worng with incest, as long as it is with consentng adults?

Think before answering.

Naj said...

Incest is a medical/psychological abnormality.

Normal primate species do not "WANT" to mate with their kin.

It is not "law" or "religion" that's putting a cap on "incestual desire", it is nature. If such thing occurs, then it's a reflection of pathology (be it pschological, social, biological(

You sound as if every human on this earth would become incestual without religion or law !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Tell me, would you have desired your mother if you were not a Muslim or Christian? And, do you have record of atheist anarchists who advocate incest!

Anyways, I am not interested in any discussions on the matter of sexual preferences; because that is beyond the realm of culture, and required a blog dedicated to nature to deal with them properly.