Monday, June 2, 2008

THIEVES, THIEVES, THIEVES

THIEVES

20 comments:

Pedestrian said...

Argh ... I can't believe it's come to this ...

And so often! Remember the
Achaemenid bas-relief soldier ?

Larry said...

Just how far will they go Naj?

David said...

My friend Khodadad wrote about these artifacts a few years ago in his blog. They are 3000 years old, and so have no connection to the IRI whatsoever. Besides, they have been in the U.S. much longer than the IRI has been in existence, if I remember correctly. These artifacts should not be involved in any civil judgments against the IRI.

MarcLord said...

Naj,

I know you're PO'd about this, but having read two of the articles on the motions and agreeing that the artifacts rightfully belong to the Iranian people, I'm still a little confused. Thence a couple dumb questions:

1) is the US trying to claim these artifacts as restitution of some sort?

2) is the government of Iran claiming inappropriate jurisdiction?

Without regard to transactional specifics, foreign artifacts in domestic public museums tend to find their way back to their countries of origin. It takes a long while, but it happens.

Naj said...

Hi Marc,

(what does PO mean?)

I am happy you find the articles confusing too; I thought i was legally-dumb to not understand:)

Many years ago, these objects were given to U of Chicago, in order for then to be deciphered and studied.

Now, a private citizen, has claimed them as retribution for an attack on civilians by Hamas!!!

The Iranians ignored this, because it was totally out of whack, but now the judge has given them reason to take this seriously!

Next thing we know, someone will take me as the "Iranian" slave-worker in order to pay back for a Hizbollah operative shitting in Jerusalem!!

Interestingly, U of Chicago is also fighting together with Iran, to make sure the objects are not auctioned off into some Zionist's pocket! These have been on Academic loan, and U of C's reputation is at stake!

an average patriot said...

naj
i see you guys are talking artifacts and I will have to check that and the link you sent me. I just happen to be talking about Ahmadinejad etc. today and thought I would like your opinion if you had the time. Take care! me

an average patriot said...

naj
PO'd means pissed off, upset, bothered, angry, bull shit!

Liquid said...

Thanks for visiting and I am thouroughly enjoying your blog as well!

DivaJood said...

Interestingly, U of Chicago is also fighting together with Iran, to make sure the objects are not auctioned off into some Zionist's pocket!

Ouch. The attorney who filed the suit to keep the artifacts, David Strachman, is Jewish. He filed on behalf of several victims of a terrorist attack by Hamas, funded by Iran and President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Strachman's intention is to create an economic disincentive for terrorists.

Because I believe in Israel's right to exist, I presume that makes me a Zionist. Yes, I am also Jewish. I also believe in the necessity and right for a Palestinian State to exist. I want them to sit down at the table and negotiate. But negotiations cannot happen if the stated goal of people like President Ahmadinejad is to drive Israel off the face of the earth.

Certainly, I understand your passion about these artifacts, which, as David points out are actually Persian as they are 3000 years old. Mr. Strachman is making a point which, frankly, I agree with. The artifacts are Persian, and at this point, should remain at the University of Chicago. Zionism has nothing to do with it, actually. The point is whether or not terrorism should be funded.

Naj said...

Divajood:

"terrorists being funded"

Do you not thing that what is FUNDING the Hamas attacks is the "hatred" generated by the unfair treatment of Palestinians in the hands of the Israelis?

Why do you assume Iran is funding Hamas?

And what proves that Iran is funding "terrorists"?

Maybe the Iranian government considers the blind support given to Israel (which officially engages in assassination, and TERRORIST attacks on Palestinans) as support to terrorism!

How do you justify the Israeli and teh Ameican terrorism, Divajood?

To carpet bomb Iraq is NOT terrorism?

To suggest for 30 years that Israel is going to attack Iran is NOT terrorism?

That you and Israel have mighty armies that THREATEN the worls is NOT terrorism?

The Jewish Lawyer who is sueing on behalf of the victims is an opportunist, hypocrite!

It is easy to pick on Iran as the sponsor of terrorism; and it is easy to vilify any "resistance" movement in this world as terrorism. But if you pay attention, these resistance movements are the only hope the Palestinians have got at "existence". As a Jew, you ought to understand the fundamental drive for right to existence; so I am sure you will sympathize with people who do not sponsor Hamas to conduct terror, but to provide food, water, electricity, security, and RIGHT TO EXISTENCE, to the Middle Easterners who are EXISTENTIALLY threatened by Israel: and it's 200 nuclear bombs, and the Zionist expansionism!

DivaJood said...

Naj, tell me where I have supported Bush's illegal war in Iraq, and I will buy you a new car. Really. I have never supported this administration. BushCo have violated every conceivable human rights treaty there is.

And tell me where I have supported Olmert's government? I have repeatedly stated that Olmert's actions against Gaza are horrific, and must stop. I have stated repeatedly that the Separation Barrier must come down. I support both a Palestinian State and Israel.

However, you know that Ahmadinejad wants to see Israel disappear.

From the BBC: Iran offers Hamas financial aid. The offer was announced by senior security official Ali Larijani after a meeting with Hamas politburo chief Khaled Meshaal, state radio reported on Tuesday, Feb. 21, 2006.

Do you agree there should be a two state solution, or do you believe that Israel must be destroyed? Where is our talking point? Where is our conversation?

Do you condone suicide bombings? Do you condone young people strapping bombs to their bodies and walking into crowded cafes, detonating those bombs and killing civilians?

I do not condone this. Nor do I condone carpet bombing, nor cluster bombing, nor the use of white phosphorous. I do not condone waterboarding, nor torture, nor the detaining of prisoners without charging them and without letting them have access to attorneys. I do not condone the destruction of houses, nor do I condone the cutting off of food and power and water. None of this is right. Absolutely none of it.

You call Mr. Strachman first a Zionist, then a Jewish Lawyer opportunist. I believe that Mr. Strachman was making a point, and that he is Jewish is irrelevant. Or should be irrelevant.

Most Jews, in Israel and abroad, want to see this come to a peaceful end, a two state solution. Would you like to see that, or is the fact of a Jewish state putting you off?

Naj, the enemy is hatred and fear. It is that simple. The animosity in the Middle East goes back much farther than the 60 years of Israel's existence. Let us not fall into that trap and let us find our common ground.

Naj said...

Divajood,

Of course I know your position about the "state-sponsored" terrorism, of the kind Bush and Olmert engage in. so I was not addressing "you" per se; but I was stating the fact that to seize Iran's cultural heritage based on a loose assumption that Iran is condoning suicide bombing is utterly biased and false.

Let me address your wuestions one by one:

However, you know that Ahmadinejad wants to see Israel disappear.

This is precisely what I know to not be true. Ahmadinejad does not want Israel disappear; and even if so, he will not lift a finger to that effect. Why? Because Israel's being there serves Iran's interest!

The struggle between Israel and Iran, if you ask me, has always been some form of a charade; a tool for political leverage. The region has three strong and non-aligning forces:
- The Israel-American,
- the Iranian-russian
- the Arab-american/russian

This triangle is holding things in a suspended stability. Ahmadinejad's argument is that Israel is a "fabricated" construct to create tension in the region. to be fair, that is what has in effect been the case. To question the philosophy behind the 'construction' of Israel, in the heart of its enemies (i.e. Arabs) is not the same as fostering hatred for a Jewish state. It is a valid question.

I personally am of teh strong opinion that, as mighty as Israel is, militarily, and as dearly teh Jewish people cherish their promised land, they have been VICTIMIZED, by the Europeans who have hidden the guilt of their antisemetism, and have shifted the blame of Holocaust from where it belonged (i.e. europe) to Middle East.

If you think in those terms, then you will not take Ahmadinejad's rhetorics literally!

The war between Iran and Israel is also their little competition for the American heart! As long as Iran is the bogey man, Israel will be receiving those candy dollars and military aids. And as long as Iran is supporting Hamas (Iran's relation to hamas is very calculate) it is buying sympathy and support of teh Arab-Streets.

Do you agree there should be a two state solution, or do you believe that Israel must be destroyed? Where is our talking point? Where is our conversation?

I think there has to be a one-state solution, that Palestinaisn and the Israelis should share the land, should make peace, should have a reconciliation committee like south Africa, and that the two people should decide their political faith. But this is a bit hard when one country had illegally occupied the homes of the other; and the other has taken revenge. so maybe there shoudl be two states; I don't know; all I want is for people to live in peace, Jews and Palestinians. I don't understand what it means for Israel to be destroyed; now adays no one really "destroys" anything. Was Russia destroyed when USSR was destroyed?

Was East Germany "destroyed" when it joined the West?

Political entities change name. And what Ahmadinejad calls for is teh "destruction of an apartheid regime". Israeli's call for destruction of IRI; does that mean they want Iran destroyed?!


Do you condone suicide bombings? Do you condone young people strapping bombs to their bodies and walking into crowded cafes, detonating those bombs and killing civilians?

I don't. But I know life is dear and sweet; and I know unless someone's driven to ABSOLUTE ddesparation one will not do that. Keep in mind that Palesinians are not teh most 'religious' of muslims. This is the only form of 'resistance' available to them. I am sad that young men and women have to kill themselves and other people in order to get the world's attention that THEY EXIST!

You call Mr. Strachman first a Zionist, then a Jewish Lawyer opportunist. I believe that Mr. Strachman was making a point, and that he is Jewish is irrelevant. Or should be irrelevant.

Yes you are right about that. I am guilty of stereotyping here. It's just that when there is "antiquity" the jewish lawyers and collectors seem to have a better appreciation for it than average Joes!

But I apologize, I had no right to make that connection.

Naj, the enemy is hatred and fear. It is that simple. The animosity in the Middle East goes back much farther than the 60 years of Israel's existence. Let us not fall into that trap and let us find our common ground.

I don't know about that. I have grown up in the middle east; and ALL this hatred talk between shiite-muslim, muslim-jewish is REALLY new to me.

I never thought Arabs hated us Persians.
I never thought Shiites and Sunnis hated eachother.
I never thought Jews and Muslims hated eachother.

I grew up in Iran; and as patriotic and nationalist as we are raised; we are also raised on the PRIDE that Persians are tolerant. We take HONOR that Persians are the only group who have never persecuted Jews: neither 3000 years ago, nor 100 years ago, nor 60 years ago, nor 30 years ago!

I invite you to take a look at sidewalk.wordpress.com

Violence is NOT promoted in Persian culture. Resistance is; but not aggression. Never!

DivaJood said...

but I was stating the fact that to seize Iran's cultural heritage based on a loose assumption that Iran is condoning suicide bombing is utterly biased and false.

Any time a nation's cultural heritage changes hands it is usually based upon loose assumptions of ownership - we could probably go into an entire blog about this alone. The ownership of art and artifacts is troublesome at best to me; in fact, in the 1970s, the artist Sol Lewitt made his work financially accessible to everyone because he objected to the concept of ownership.

Ahmadinejad's argument is that Israel is a "fabricated" construct to create tension in the region. To follow that line of reasoning to the end, all nations are fabricated constructs that ultimately cause tension. The Native Americans, and the Australian Aboriginals, are well aware that people cannot own the land, we are merely stewards. The history of ownership by governments has been disasterous to the environment. Iran is as much a construct in what was Persia, as is Israel, as is Jordan, as is the United States. Hell, I live in California, which is really Mexico.

I personally am of teh strong opinion that, as mighty as Israel is, militarily, and as dearly teh Jewish people cherish their promised land, they have been VICTIMIZED, by the Europeans who have hidden the guilt of their antisemetism, and have shifted the blame of Holocaust from where it belonged (i.e. europe) to Middle East.

I agree, completely. And especially victimized by the British, who created the borders in the first place without rhyme nor reason, nor properly working this out with the neighboring countries.

I think there has to be a one-state solution, that Palestinaisn and the Israelis should share the land, should make peace, should have a reconciliation committee like south Africa, and that the two people should decide their political faith.
One state, two states, I really don't much care as long as they stop killing each other. They must make peace.

But this is a bit hard when one country had illegally occupied the homes of the other; and the other has taken revenge. Sort of like how the White people in North America drove the Natives into reservations? Or the White people in Australia drove the Aboriginals almost to extinction? Or the Chinese in Tibet? Or the Spanish in Mexico? Or the English just about everywhere? Every nation has been founded on the backs of other nations, every nation has been founded ultimately illegally. To use this argument against Israel and not elsewhere is probably not so valid.

Actually, I am aware that Persians have never persecuted Jews. One of the oldest Jewish communities is in Persia.

This is an interesting conversation, and I appreciate your insights.

Naj said...

Divajood:

Re the ownership of art: I am opposed to ownership of art; and I think great art should belong to museums, to PEOPLE of the world.

If you have visited Metropolitain Museum, you will find some of teh most cherished artifacts of Persian heritage on display; that makes me happy because that gives exposure to a culture that belongs to humanity as much as it belongs to me, who am from that earth, from those genes from that culture.

But a 3000 years old piece of stone unearthed in a country where people are still speaking, thinking, living that 3000 years old language DOE NOT BELONG TO A PRIVATE COLLECTION OF A PRIVATE CITIZEN WHO HAD DECIDED TO TEACH AHMADINEJAD A LESSON!

It belongs to Iran.

Just as the Statue of Liberty belongs to America!
Just as The first light bulb belongs to America.

These things are what make nations; and nations need to be inclusive, generous, sharing; in order to grow and evolve.

Are all the countries a construct? I don't know about that! There are countries that are generated by FORCE, like America and Israel; and there are those who are generated out of concession, trade, common sharing, such as Canada!

No one has drawn arbitrary borders to call them Persia or Iran. Iran is a geographic entity which is defined by its culture, its folk, its history, its myths, and it has remained stable through thousands of years BECAUSE the DIVERSE humans who have occupied it, have shared, have consented to sharing and coexisting. If not, Iran would have been Balkan! Or USSR.

And I am sure you know the same British who created the mess in Palestine did try very hard to do the same in Iran. But, they didn't succeed. Yes they created a whole bunch of cults in Iran; but at the end, the country has remained united, and has rallied behind the WORST of its dictators: Shah, khomeini; and even this idiot Ahmadinejad, who is not even a dictator, but a petty asshole!

DivaJood said...

oh, for a second I thought you wrote "pretty" asshole, then realized it was "petty".

The world would be just fine if not for the leadership.

Naj said...

"pretty" is an unfair description of that visually unappealing dude! :)

(my husband will now scold me for talking about people's looks.)

Pedestrian said...

First of all I am greatly enjoying your discussion divajood and Naj! ;-)

Second, now I have something to say about this:

Do you condone suicide bombings? Do you condone young people strapping bombs to their bodies and walking into crowded cafes, detonating those bombs and killing civilians?

Personally: of course not!

But I think one element which has blown our minds away in the past decades (as Middle Easteners) is how brutally biased the rest of the world has been in their naming convention.

During the 30s and 40s, Jewish militia groups carried out gargantuan terrorist acts to realize a Jewish state.

Organizations like Irgun, Lehi, etc were involved in murder, kidnapping, bombing, etc.

Today, those Irgun members responsible for the bombings of the British military headquarters in Jerusalem in 1946 in which 100 people were killed can sit on prime time TV and mock the world for calling them "terrorists" because they were simply fighting for "their" land.

And the world nods in agreement.

So what are the Palestinians doing?

America devastated & destroyed hundreds of thousands of Middle Easterners after 9/11 because the men who carried out those attacks against her land on September 11th were from the Middle East.

(never mind that you don't annihilate a continent because of a group of psychotic men, but anyways ... )

Through out history, men have fought brutally for their lands. Historically, what has been the main reason for war?

the Motherland.

Have any of these acts been less brutal than the other?

Was Jewish terrorism, kidnapping and murder to realize a Jewish state any more "right"?

So why do we only constantly pound the Palestinians?

When fighting for their land today, (albeit via means which many of us find deplorable) nobody ever says: hey! we were doing that 50 years ago!

It's not a matter of right or wrong - but equal treatment.

DivaJood said...

pedestrian, interesting comment - and I think you've also outlined the difference between the Palestinian suicide bombers from the Irgun, the Irish Republican Army, and any other form of guerilla warriors.

You wrote: Today, those Irgun members responsible for the bombings of the British military headquarters in Jerusalem in 1946 in which 100 people were killed

The Irgun attacked Military targets. The Irish Republican Army attacked Military targets. The suicide bombers that walk into schools, bus stations, train stations, bistros - they are not hitting military targets. The men who hijacked planes and flew them into the Twin Towers of the WTC in New York were killing innocent civilians. A close friend of mine sat in the first class section of the first plane to hit the first tower - she did nothing to warrant this cold blooded murder.

On the other hand, when Israel cuts off basic human services to Gaza, this is criminal. When Israel bulldozes homes in Gaza, this is criminal. When the United States, under the hands of a corrupt government, wages an illegal war in Iraq, this is criminal. At least Israel is hard on the heels of Olmert, who is a Bush puppet and will be forced to resign soon. I suspect that the US Congress will be unable to impeach Bush & Cheney, and it will fall to the World Court to bring those two to justice.

But with Barack Obama's nomination, I have hope for the USA - and when he wins in November, I think the USA will be able to recover from the last 8 years of our own madman.

Naj said...

Diva,

Iranians are pragmatic people; even the Mullah's. If there is economic incentive, they will not be saber rattling against Zionists.

But, the Hamas is not an Iranian-generated entity! Nor are the suicide bombings orchestrated and supported by Iran.

Without Hamas and Hizbolah, which are 'democratic' representatives of their people, Israel would have annihilated eh Palestinians. If Iran is helping the Palestinian people, by giving financial aid to these groups; it doesn't mean it is supporting the suicide bombing of markets and schools.

I have NEVER heard, from the most radical of Iranian rulers, condoning violence against civilians or any creed or race! Such talk in Iran WILL NOT FLY. Will be very offensive.

Iranians, when shout "down with Israel" are speaking in riddles, symbolically NOT literally. And that is nothing but political posturing!

Iran itself is a victim of terrorism: America funds terrorists (and they call them resistance fighters against IRI) to explode bombs in mosques in Iran. Al-quaeda has threatened terrorist attacks on Iranian soil ... iran CANNOT condone terrorism; and this is where people do NOT pay attention.

Yes the Iranian government has assassinated a few political figures 9all Iranians) inside and outside Iran! Let's not forget that Iran's "central intelligence agency" is built on an infrastructure set up by Mossad. When it comes to opressing the opposition, the IRI and the Zionist regime are like blood sisters!

And I wish both of them to go to hell and let people sort things out.

MarcLord said...

naj,

thanks for the explanation/confirmation. That's the kind of frivolous, grasping thing which gives Jews and lawyers a bad name, expecting such a lawsuit to be taken seriously.