Saturday, July 21, 2007

Nazis attack Iran

... writes Margaret Kimberley



"The Americans think it is ridiculous and libelous to accuse them of acting like Nazis - and then they do. The planned attack on Iran, a people we know no better than we knew the Iraqis, will be a slaughter for which the world will hold the American people accountable. The Democratic assemble of presidential candidates - with the exception of Rep. Dennis Kucinich and former Sen. Mike Gravel - are all down for the debacle. Blood seems to be as much a part of the campaign menu as money. The only party that profits from this is the Israeli lobby, the biggest game in town.
...
Americans take great offense when their actions are compared to those of Hitler's Germany. When Democratic Senator Richard Durbin correctly stated that interrogation methods used at Guantanamo were akin to those used by the Nazis or Pol Pot's Cambodia, he was vilified by Republicans and Democrats alike. He was eventually forced to make a public retraction on the Senate floor. God forbid that Americans should be compared to Nazis.
...
...
Senator "Holy" Joe Lieberman wants war with Iran. His sick dream is now on the road to becoming reality because of an amendment to the Defense Authorization Act that he sponsored. The amendment states as fact that American soldiers have been killed and wounded by Iranian attacks in Iraq and requires periodic intelligence reports of Iranian activity in Iraq. The fix is already in, as the old saying goes. Every report will assert that Iran is behind every bombing, shooting or report of bad weather in Iraq. The amendment passed unanimously, 97-0.
...
Just as Joe Lieberman stoked the fires of war in Washington, Avigdor Lieberman, a member of Israel's parliament, claimed that NATO gave Israel permission to attack Iran. Lieberman is quite an outspoken racist who has called for the mass killing of Arabs living in Israel. It is an odd coincidence that he made his claim just as the American Lieberman got his ducks in a row to begin the countdown.

The Nazi comparison is accurate even when applied to Israelis or to American Jews like Joe Lieberman. They can be called fascist if they promote fascist ideology. The two Liebermans shouldn't be allowed to use the suffering of their own people to mask their own evil doing. It wouldn't be the first time that members of an oppressed group gladly joined the ranks of oppressors if someone else was the oppressee.
...
The world will ask Americans what they knew and when they knew it. Did they know that Iranian president Ahmedinejad never said Israel should be "wiped off the map?" Did they know that Israel is a nuclear power under no threat from Iran? Did they know that the U.S. is holding Iranian diplomats hostage? Ironically, outright lies and deliberate omissions in government and in the corporate media will allow most Americans to truthfully say they had no idea their government had turned them into war criminals."

Read the entire article on Scoop

108 comments:

Anonymous said...

During the War of Sacred Defense, hundreds of thousands of us were forced to flee Tehran and other Iranian cities because of Iraq's rocket attacks on us. We accepted the cease-fire because of the arms embargo against us prevented us from destroying Saddam's regime. [France, and to a lesser extent UK, were instrumental in saving Hussein.] And we feared gas attacks on our major population centers courtesy of Egypt, EU and others. Never again - regardless of who rules in Tehran!

We were taught a bitter lesson and we have learnt it well.

We expect a US attack on us to take several weeks to prepare. So we would know when it will be coming. The war-monger French commentator, Bruno Tertrais, has already advised US not only to attack the nuclear sites but all the sites that make Iran a working country: power-plants, factories, rail-roads, etc. Yugoslavia Redux.

Thus, we expect 15,000 dead and wounded Iranian and 200 Billion in damages. And of course, we will retaliate with all our might.

US can escalate and so can we and the impact of this war on oil production and distribution is not predictable.

I would also like to pint out that at the grass-root level, Muslim people support us - more than a billion. I realize that they are powerless individually but they do matter to what US can and cannot do. Moreover, any US attack on Iran will cause a mass exodus out of NPT by Muslim states [23] - what is US going to do next? Go to war with the other Muslim states as well? And the Muslim exodus will be followed by many states among the NAM.

The war however is not likely.

US policy, since the election of Mr. Ahmadinejad, has been to put in place the elements of containment and deterrence - similar to the Cold War.

That will fail.

It will fail because Iran is not an ideological state - it is a Shia State, for and by the Shia.

It will fail because Iran's allies, the Shia populations of Iraq, Lebanon, and the Alawaite state genuinely need Iran - they have no place else to go. These allies are not equivalents of the Eastern European Communist states whose strings were pulled from Moscow.

It will fail because, contrary to Western Europe during the Cold War, US is despised in the Middle East. The population is against US, even in the nominally US friendly states such as Saudi Arabia or UAE [where there were celebrations in their major cities after the 9/11 attacks on US].

It will fail because, again contrary to Europe, US is perceived to be against Islam. US cannot overcome this stigma any time soon. This is a crucial point - the information war was a significant component of the Cold War. US has lost the information war not just in Iran but among ALL Muslims.

It will fail because the US, in trying to deter and contain Iran, will invoke the Shia Specter - thus fanning the Shia-Sunni flames that have been dormant for 200 years. This is a great threat to the Sunni Arab states that US is trying to "protect".

It will fail because as the supporter of the Israel in the Judaism-Islam War in Palestine, she is perceived as a co-belligerent against Islam while we, in Iran, are perceived as champions of Islam and the Palestinian peoples.

I fear that George Bush, the stubborn man that he is, will cause US to learn through war with Iran that she is not omnipotent. I regret that my country, in order to safeguard her security and political independence, has to pay this price. But there may be no other way. We cannot trust our security to worthless words written on sheets of paper called International Instruments of Disarmament.

We have surmised that our relationship with the United States cannot be normalized in the immediate term (~ 1 year) ot meidum term (~ 5 years) or long term (~ 10 years). We have, as you say, irreconcilable interests in the Levant, in Palestine, in Persian Gulf.

On numerous occasions US has indicated that she is only interested in discussing Iran's terms of surrender - that will not happen.

What we are doing is to minimize the costs of our confrontations with US. That's all.

Until George Bush leaves office there is a danger of US attack on Iran.

pen Name

Anon-Paranoid said...

I've been saying this for a long time. My country has been taken over by the Republican Fascists Nazi's and it won't be long before they declare Martial Law and suspend our Constitution just like Hitler did in Germany.

I'll keep all of you in my prayers as I keep all loyal Americans in my prayers also.

God Bless.

Naj said...

Pen Name,

Thank you for your comment.

I differ with you on several points; and I am sure many other Iranians differ with both you and I.

I am not which "we" you are referring to. But I am not sure your "we" is 70 million persons large.

Anna said...

pen Name
I just hope you are correct with your points starting with "it will fail, because ..."

MY greatest worry is: At the time Bush and thus Cheney too will be out of service and up till then another "mission to be acclomplished" will not have started, there still the real strategists - also known as "think-tanks" will be in power: PNAC and AIPAC also to be mentioned vice versa. No, absolutely no candidate for presidency becomes even candidate without making his specific bows for them!!! And having then been elected or "elected" and thus become president nothing will change on this submission ... including the "new" staff.

We will see and we will have to see and meanwhile must hope and pray for some wonder to happen, because morons are hard to stop. Apparently!

Anna said...

And additionally to the already said: Not to underestimate the huge interests of the Military Industrial Complex!
Eisenhower before left office has warned, that if ever the MIC will have the main saying in US-policies, then help us God. Well, God didn't help! To the contrary.

RickB said...

I saw this at Crooks & Liars:-
"K-Lo from the NRO:
Readers are really into Cheney being president for awhile. Suggestions for Acting President Cheney include
Bomb Iran.
Commute the sentences of those border agents.
Fire Mike Chertoff.
Tell Harry Reid to … well, you know…
Pardon Scooter."

I left this comment:-
The ‘bomb Iran’ meme should be called out for what it is, a racist incitement to murder. Agitating for genocide. Rwandan radio had many similar sentiments broadcast which succesfully incited a genocide. I don’t think a jokey, ‘oh these people’ reaction is good enough anymore. Take this racism seriously now. It’s too late when CNN are showing you the burnt bodies.

So yes, I think the nazi comparison are apt, Godwin's law is over.

Anna said...

That's all right, rickb, but how come these criminals seem quasi to be classified as historical monuments and thus are under protection ... meaning: apparently it's not possible to at least impeach them, while they effectively should be accused for war-crimes? A rhetorical question, I know!

Anonymous said...

Anna:

Military-Industrial Complex is just a symptom of a symptom.

US decided to be an Imperial power sometime in the 19-th Century. The war against Mexico, the Civil War, the War against Spain, WWI, and WWII were all imperial wars that were quite successful in terms of expansion of US power & wealth.

But the decision to be an imperil power is iteself a symptom of the fundamental disease of mankind - its crooked timber. What is called the Fall of Man.

Incidentally, Eisenhower was the one who destroyed democracy in iran and launched America on her war path in Indo-China.

pen Name

Naj said...

Second you on this one pen!

Dave On Fire said...

The Nazi comparison is certainly apt - as would be many others. History is not exactly short on genocidal regimes.

penName: I'm not sure I agree on which is a symptom of which. Doesn't much of the drive to be an imperial power come - in the case of the modern US - from the MIC?

I really hope you're right about the war being unlikely; the risk of escalation is very real and even without it those 15000 Iranian casualties (seems a realistic figure for a short air campaign, for anything else it's pretty optimistic) are unacceptable.

But as you say, the US is already widely resented in the Muslim world (not universally, though); what do you expect the "Muslim street" to do? Wars can be aborted by grassroots movements in the country leading the war, the would-be soldiers and labourers refusing to take part, but that's not in Pakistan and the Arab world, that's America, where the trade unions are dead and the antiwar movement essentially a limp extension of the largely prowar democratic party.

I think there's a chance of the war being averted politically. Many in the Pentagon etc are saying it's a terrible idea - that's not the best of reasons to oppose mass murder, but it'll do - and there's plenty of potential popular opposition.

If, for the above reasons, that shouldn't work in the US, what can other countries do? Russia and Iran are in very similar positions at the moment, but Russia is a lot less vulnerable; a formal alliance would make strategic sense, though the Russian far-right would have to be reckoned with.

Otherwise, an Islamic revolution in Pakistan? There is definitely strong grassroots opposition there to anti-Islamic American imperialism, but the puppet regime is looking very wobbly and there, uniquely, the grassroots Islamists could get their hands on nuclear weapons. Not that that's without its own terrifying potential consequences, of course, and we have to wonder whether the whole (manufactured) Sunni-Shia conflict might stop and IRI-IRP alliance.

Anonymous said...

dave on fire:

I do not expect other countries to do anything active to support Iran. I expect the Sunni Arab states to be esctatic about an attack on Iran. I think Russia, China, and Indian leaders would be shedding crocodile tears while all the time calculating that US has delivered Iran to them - since Iran will obviously have no place else to go except Russia, China, and to a certain exent India.

I do not believe that the war will change the strategic situation though: there will be a strong alliance of Iran-Syria-Hizbullah arrayed against weak Sunni Arab states & Israel.

I think US will be a looser because she will be forced now to shoulder even a larger burden than she does today - including added burden of protecting Israel.

I think EU and Japan will be definite loosers since their influence will be that much more diminished in the Levant & the Persian Gulf.

I think Iran will be a winner only in the sense that she will not collapse and maintain her presence in the battle field.

I think there will be collateral damage to poor Afghan people.

As for Pakistan: as far as I am concerned everything there has been going in the wrong direction since the coup d'etat against Zulfaghar Ali Bhutto.

That country will explode socially and it will be ugly.

By thw way, the official name of that country is already Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

The Shia - Sunni divide is not manufactired. If you ever have a chance to visit the Middle East go to a large Sunni Mosque and then go to the Shrine of Imam Reza in Mashhad. It is as though you are experiencing a different religion.

pen Name

Anonymous said...

Dave On Fire:

No, the US imperial project predates MIC.

US, Britain, Iran, Russia, Germany, France and many others have had imperial projects. MIC is a symptom for an industrialized state.

pen Name

Guthman Bey said...

I think you are reading too much into this Senate motion. It passed 97-0 only after being amended with a paragraph stating that it doesn't in any way empower Bush to go to war with Iran. So all belligerent rhetoric aside, it can be read backwards: namely as a resolution that growls at Iran but reminds Bush and friends that in order to go to war they would have to come back first and ask Congress.
I am sure the White House would love nothing better than attacking Iran, since the entire Afghanistan/Iraq war thing makes sense strategically only when you engineer regime change in Iran as well. But you have to be able to pull it off too. If by now Chalabi was a happy pro-consul in Baghdad and Iraq's oil was being exported smoothly and amply, I would be very worried. As it is, I find it hard to see more in this than agressive posturing.

Howa Wa Heya said...

I am an impartial secular Egyptian living in US
I guess you guys ( those who post comments in this place) are mostly all iranian. I can feel that for sure. You might be right in many points but unfortunately in all those great comments you all think inside the BOX and that box is Iran. You got to think outside the box so you can know what , why, when, and how. The attack on Iran will happen not matter what. you got to be so prepared for it if you all keep thinknig inside the same BOX ( Iran). and let me tell you, it will be more devastating than you might imagine. it will be a sort of hit-kill-and run. America will not deal with you the way it did with Iraq cause basically you have nothing to be looked at. I once wrote a comment in my casual blog. I said I like Ahmednejad he is impressive and convinvcing but his only problem is that he think he can change the rules of the game simply because he is logic. If you have the good proof of logic to even change a simple rule in any kind of sport that you see it needs to be changed you will not be able by yourself. it is a global game. GLOBAL GAME. The game is: America is the Monster of the world. The monster said is frankly long ago that he is addictive to oil. The oil is with the Arab. with simple logic, if you want to avoid the monster attacking you then stay away from the Arab ( dont tell me I am saying that because I am Arab, oh please). Henrey Kissinger said it frankly too 30 years ago. He said " the oil is too important to be left to the arab" Oh come on guys, the game is so clear. You guys have been crossing the red lights never looked at the warning street signs. First you developed a pain in the butt called Hizbulla located few miles from Israel the US intimate ally, then you are supporting the Iraqi shii to control an arab oil Country; Iraq. Finally you claim that Bahrain State is a forgotten part of Iran. Tell me please what now do you expect ????????

Naj said...

Bahrein IS an Iranian territory. But we don't want it territorially, we are just setting the records straight. If we had left it to the world, the Persian Gulf would have already been renamed, and Iran would have joined the ranks of oil-fat belly-dancing Arab league! As my frind Pen says: NEVER!

Arabs may resent Iran as much as they will. It only reflects on THEIR failure; perpetual failure; and their inability to pull themselves together and DO something constructive, instead of playing cat and mouse politics and parasite-ing off of who ever is more powerful.

Take Egypt for example. It was Nasser who drove Israel to defeat Arabs; and it was Egypt to rush to make peace with Israel! But I don't care what Arabs do to each other. None of my business!

The only cyber-geopolitic-discourse sampling that I have done, has revealed an interesting pattern in my Egyptian commentators: They come forward as Iran-lovers; then they flirt ; then they hit the wall; then they switch side against Iran, The great enemy of Arabism!!!!

En tout cas, only one of the commentators on this blog is Iranian.

Speaking of the "monsterosity of Hizbollah" ... without it, I wonder who would have defended Lebanese in the July war? The belly dancers of the middle east?!

< SR, pun intended! >

Guthman, I agree with you. But I am worried for Iran. I cannot trust Syrians.

Naj said...

Pen,

Speaking of Pakistan, do you think Americans are shifting the "chaos" policy from Iran to Pakistan, in order to make sure they have installed enough fundamentalist zeal in the region to tie Iran's hands further? I think they are buying time with Iran!

Their nuclear pivot has died down with Iran's clever "ja-khali" re nuclear issue. Their only lie is that Iran's killing Americans. Bullshit! But Jeiwsh-funded Americans like buying it! It's all that their currency can afford.

Yes Pakistan is on a dangerous wrong path ... and no one is paying attention to its nuclear weapons!

Anna said...

pen Name,
all in all you are correct. When I in its wholeness am looking over the history, thus the "becoming" of the construction called USA it's in principle one single succession based on cruelty, deprivation, racism, arrogancy, shaping the "rest of the world" according to ones own will and imaginations, development of an imperious mindset and selfunderstanding ... over and above calling themselves "God's own country" .. what a scorn, if not blasphemy in the light of all the suppressional and imperialistic behavor and endeavourings ever since. While the values of such as democracy and humanrights ever since just get endangered. Just to mention for example and pick out of the "whole" the wheelings and dealings under "Red Scare" followed by "Second Red Scare" (McCarthy-Aera) comparisons with the former Sovjetunion are absolutely justified! And it never ended, never ends, because it's characteristic!!! What dirty and destructive imperialistic wheelings and dealings in order to "shape the rest of the world" are practicized today everybody knows who wants to know it. All in the name of democracy, liberty. What a goddamn cynism! And obviously not stoppable.

Anonymous said...

Naj:

The policy of deliberating seeding chaos that you attribute to US is not plausible.

For one thing, there are not that many smrt people un the world who would be able to concieve and sustain that type of policy - least of all in the United States.

I think Mr. Zia, by involving Pakistan in the War in Afghanistan, planted the seedsof current disorider in Pakistan. He killed Bhutto and the Bhutto reforams (limited land reform, free & unrigged elections, wlaking towrds the goal of democracy).

He (Zia) Islamicized Pakistan at the expense of Reform in the most rigid way - all the while further entrenching the rule of the Feudal Lords (Zamin-dars) in Pakistan. His security policies militarized the Pashtuns of the Northwest Frontier Province (in order to Fight in Afghanistan). Nawaz Sharif & Bhutto (Benazir) were fllowers of Zia; rob the country and maintain teh status quo. Under them, the Sunni - Shia divide has started into a flame.

One of my relatives was in Karachi 20 years ago to get US visa. She was by herself, stayed in a cheap hotel, bought fruits from teh street vendors, etc. never feeling unsafe. But now, I think no Iranian is safe in Pakistan.

pen Name

Howa Wa Heya said...

Miss Naj
in the begining of my comment I introduced myself in an honest, true, professional way. If you notice that my comment did not deviate away from the appropriateness, in the thought and in the words I chose because publishing is a resposibility. it basically highlights your personal background and gives idea about your attitude and ethics. My critique was not meant to hurt. If you felt so then we talk about paranoia here. Anyway I am so thankful to you that you post my comment. If we disagree on some points and that irritates you and make you exceed the limits of appropriatness and etiquette then I prefer that we stay friends.

Anonymous said...

Howa Wa Heya:

The Iranian leadeship, in pursuing the national interests of Iran, has always assumed that there will be a war with US. And that Iran has to rely on her on resources.

You will never get anything out of Americans for "good behavior". The price for Egypt has been $6 billion dollars a year - that is how much a great country like Egypt has been worth to US - Egypt, the heart of the Arab world, a country of 70 million!

Libya, which surrendered, did not get what she expected - their leaders have communicated as much to the leaders of Iran.

And now look at India which voted againt us at IAEA - no nuclear deal forthcoming with US although that promise was what got them to vote against us.

In the international arena only and only Power is respected. If you are weak, you will be trampled under the feet of stronger states.

We have some Power and we are using it to advance our interests. US cannot undo our Power. She can attack us but her power in teh region will be diminished much more so.

pen Name

Anonymous said...

Anna:

US is not unique - look around you in the European continent: 80 million dead between 1914-1945.

And EU states still threaten us, in Iran, with death and destruction.

pen Name

Anna said...

By the way, Naj,
thanks anyway for this article in scoop. Together with the article on globalresearch re the the consequent blaming Iran for all and everything and now for committing attacks in Iraq I yesterday have linked them. They actually perfectly fitted one of my regular (!) writings contrasting the US and IL geopolitically neocon-oriented and supporting swiss weekly. It’s not quite the easy way to become popular ;-). But it must be done! And fortunately I’m not the only one. The „fruits“ of all the propagandistic endevaourings for creating „enemy-images“ and by demonizing a religion (this time Islam) and countries is tragically just too much reminding oneself at the ones committed by the Nazis. And the historical forgetfulness, manipulatibility, credulity and ignorance of the masses is all over again as astonishing as it is frightening.

Btw. in Germany the minister for domestic affairs (Schäuble and his poodles) is as actively as paranoically occupied to copy and convert (that is to say: to undermine!) civilrights thus parts of the german constitution according to the „recommendations“ by „Patriot Act“ and alikes. And together with the minister of defense (Jung) and the minister for foreign affairs (Steinmeier) is actively trying to drive germans deeper and deeper into war-activities in Afghanistan. Against the will of the people! But „because“ Germany's freedom must be defended at the Hindukush ... as they constantly are making believe the people.

Sometimes one thinks it’s just the last twitching of concepts in the decline and their moronic defenders. But I’m not so sure! Because the implicit dynamics of such are not to be underestimated! We will see and will have to see.

Naj said...

:) Sorry SR. Well yes I was a bit irritated; but not by this post; but by those friendly notes that I didn't publish.

I am sorry; I admit that encounter with Amro has made me slightly irritable. I acknowledge my partialness and apologize for misunderstanding.

Best.

Naj

Anna said...

I know, pen Name, I know!!!

After world war II people nevertheless were confessing "Never again! Never ever again!" And it seemed, as if they for a while even would take it for serious. But to be quite hones: maybe I just hoped so.

And when we look around what has happened since and keeps on happing quite to todays day? What we see? No need the tell!

The madnesss always comes along and shows in different "clothes" and disguise ... that's why it apparently seems to be difficult to recognize it. I myself do not understand this lacking ability for recognition, I somehow don't and can't!

And yes, "Europe" is on the very best imaginable way to be guilty again!!! By joining and supporting the war-mongers and war-criminals from "over the ocean" with Israel and the zionistic "dreams" "in tow".

Anonymous said...

Anna:

Indeed!

Thus we are led back to statement of Jesus: "..offer the oher cheeck". A form of spiritual exercise and discipline to force us to see through our madness: "...we see through the glass but darkly.." and not seek justification for our (mad) actions since "no man is justified in the eyes of the Lord".

pen Name

Anonymous said...

Anna:

At least the Swiss have been able to avoid war for 400 years.

And Sweden avoided WWI and WWII.

So did Spain and Portugal.

Thus it is possible to avoid war.

We should try to build on that basis.

The situation is not hopeless.

pen Name

Naj said...

Pen
The policy of deliberating seeding chaos that you attribute to US is not plausible.

For one thing, there are not that many smrt people un the world who would be able to concieve and sustain that type of policy - least of all in the United States.


LOL!
Liked this one!
good I am not running the imperial politics then! ;)

Which brings me to Anna:
"What dirty and destructive imperialistic wheelings and dealings in order to "shape the rest of the world" are practicized today everybody knows who wants to know it."

Anna, the imperialist dealing and wheelings are not an American or European invention. The pretense of democracy in the West, is just that: PRETENSE! When push comes to the shove, it is set aside; as it is in the owrld today, and the promoters of that "so called" democracy become tyrants. What I do like about the neo-conservatives is that they are not hypocrites like the Democrats of the US are, or like the Arab states.

We have a saying in Persian: they are wearing their swords on top! We know they are our enemies; and we KNOW what the terms of the game are; so in a way it is fair play! They want us to succumb: showing us their military muscle! and we know the price that we will pay. 15000 is not realistic. The casualties will be much higher. The damage to infrastructure will set us back again by 20 years. We know that this is what they seek; to set us back economically. and all of them want that: India, China, Russia, those pesky Arab states, Israel!

In all this, I think Iran's alliance with Israel would have been the best case scenario; only if Israel refused to be an ass and stopped abusing a tiny population of Palestians and Lebanese and let go of her grudge and paranoia!

But the Imperial dream is not an American one. The Imperial dream is a Zionist one! Israel is the instrument of that dream, and the Zionists do not reside in that poor little volatile Israel; they reside in New York!

And ... let's stop nagging at the perils of MIC ... without it we would not have had our little internet to blog about! We are all taking ADVANTAGE of the MIC's innovations, infrastructure and what not!

But, I agree with Pen that Sweden and Switzerlans and even France avoided war. They are however rather hated for having been the accomplices! Ask the Danish and the Norwegians what they think of the Swede! And the French are still cursed for being collaborators! And the Swiss have the reputation of money laundering whores!

There is a price to pay. Iran needs to decide whether it wants to pay the price in honor or in blood!

I prefer Iran's honor spilled than its blood. I am tired of this millenia-old Persian stubbornness of wanting to take on every asshole who has set out to rape us! It just scars us. And at the end, we convert them, with modify them we Persianize their illegitimate children that we bear!

I am sick of this rhetorical nonsense. And am sick of nagging and whining at MIC! Come up with a solution!

Anna said...

Dear pen Name
Hope:
1. It's dying always last.
2. In times of wars it's always dying first.

Thinking of all the countless!!! people and their conrete opposing war, in mindset and conrete trying to do something against ... NO!! f o r peace and commonsense I must admit, that sometimes I think its exactly these people, that is WE the majority, getting permanently cheated and tricked out all over again by those with other objectivs and "ideas" and their means and possibilities to realize them. Thus and regarding this fact my hope is as well the hope their power-, blood- and revengethirsty endevaourings simply and nevertheless may implode, collapse in the very next future like a rotten bumpkin. Because they are acting completely against the will and essential, existential needings of the populations ...without the smallest spark of respect for live and without any spark of conscience! And as I said elsewhere, standing as sort of "historical monuments" under special protections.

Deep in my heart and soul and as a "war-wounded" I still am a "child", never ever understanding nor even wanting to understand some things. And that's why I never gave up the definition of "hope" I mentioned first. But this definition does not fall from heaven. One must do what ever is possible to do. Nothing else is left for us small and normal people!

Salam ha-ye samimane wa kheyr peesh!

Naj said...

Anna,

Have you seen Fassbinder's Berlin Trilogy?

That is one of the GREATEST metaphors of German politics and European post-war politics to have ever come out of the New German Cinema!

THE WWII was not a solely GERMAN phenomenon. We still ADMIRE and ASPIRE to be German-like! THAT is the STATE OF FALL that Pen keeps talking about!

We are in a state of fall while we think we are accelerating towards UP! Our HIGHEST is lowest!


I do recommend it to all.

Anna said...

He-he Naj, did you grow angry with me and my senseless "rhetoric"? It was not my intention, so sorry if I managed it nevertheless. Sure it's not just the MIC and the neocons ... we owe "them" so much. It's the state of mind of the hegemonial rulers and their "global dreams" they do net get tired to fulfill them ... including the zionistic "ideas" in fulfilling these "dreams" ... as I mentioned in another comment.

Kind regards!

Naj said...

Anna,

No I didn't grow tired of YOUR rhetoric; but just tired of all of our rhetorics.

I like philosophization, but not when it becomes circular and stops to create sustainable models of action and strategy.

So my point of address was not you, but I think I was addressing the whole "left" movement, to which I myself belong in principle, but not in philosophy-nor even in practice i guess, as I enjoy the perks of elitist establishments with their strong sense of entitlement to the rest of the world.

Anonymous said...

Anna:

You are Swiss - you hav no responsibility to the rest of mankind. All that is expected of you is to keep your own country out of these wars.

pen Name

Anonymous said...

naj:

As Imam Ali said:

تزول الجباله ولاتزول

"Even if mountains shakes - you do not shake.."

The US attack on Iran is not the end of the world or the end of Iran.

And for the attack that I described US has to collect everything she has from the 4 corners of te Earth.

To be a powerful country, you have to act like one. We acted weakly and we lost Herat, Baluchistan, and Bahrain.

I am not even mentioning Georgia, Armenia, Aran, and Nachchevan.

There is no other way - either Greatness, Grandness, and Position or the Death of the Weak.

يا بزرگى و عزت و جاه
ياچو ن ضعيفانت مرگ روياروى

pen Name

Anna said...

Dear Naj, thanks and so then I'm "calmed".

Yes, I know about that trilogy.

Yes, State of fall.

It somehow seems - to me at least - also a history of forgetfullness "in order" to be or to get fascinated all over again for "things" that always just will lead mankind into abysses. Philosophy and psychology are "telling" us much about such dynamics.

Reminding me sometimes - if not often! - to
"We have invented happyness, said the last human beings, and they blink" (In "Thus spoke Zarathustra")

What else can WE do exept as well as it is possible to avoid becoming part of the madnesses going on and on, except recognizing it and raising our voices against it? Nothing! And believing - even it's would be just for oneself - it's not just "nothing"

Salam ha-ye samimane

Anna said...

pen Name:
I'm living in Switzerland. Of origin I am hungarian. Having come here 1956 with all the other refugees. And of course long tome since I have become a swiss citizen.

Of course I am knowing what I am responsible for and can be responsilbe for and for what not.

This does not necesseraly mean, that "mankind" and its fate has not to interess me at all. If you allow so.

Naj said...

We lost Georgia and Azerbaijan because we went to a war that we couldn't win!

We don't need to surrender; but there is no need to be stupid either!

No a war with Iran is NOT the end of the world; but I still think Iran needs to keep acting smart. And the first thing Iran needs to do is to reconcile Iranians from the four corners of the world.

We really don't have any friends other than ourselves. We all care for our country; and we all need to be given the right to defend it. And we need an authority that we all respect; and Khamenei or Ahmadinejad, unfortunately are not that.

Anyways, I do what I can. And you do what you can; and I hope friends like Anna, Anon-paranoid, Dave on Fire, Fleming, Marclord, Betmo, Nunya, RickB, Fanonite, Daniel, Messiah, Rose, Sophia, David, Brother Tim, Monte, Homeyra, Ann, Hope, Furgaia and all other busy activist/ bloggers will keep spreading the word.

I cannot expect anyone of them to fight with their sweat and blood for my home. That is MY duty. And I will if I must.

Anonymous said...

Anna:

"...be in nothing so moderate as in love of man, a clever
servant, insufferable master.

There is the trap that catches noblest spirits, that caught–
they say–God, when he walked on earth. "

Help Switzerland remain neutral - that's all that can be expected of you.

It is possible not to be in War for hundreds of years. Let people find out how so they can repeat that elsewhere.

pen Name

Anonymous said...

Naj:

We are not friendless - Armenia is a friend. And so is the Shia of Lebanon and Iraq. And the Hazara of Afghanistan. And the Tadjiks.

You are correct, however about the need for unity.

It will take decades for this to sink into the Iranian people that there is no one that can help them but themselves.

That others, such as those mentioned above, are in fact looking for Iran to help them.

We have a duty to be strong, to grow, and to be wealthy to help others.

I do not expect others to carry the load - but my aim has been educating others; countering the propaganda and the false self-image of this Age.

pen Name

David said...

I think it is a bit premature to be comparing America with Nazi Germany. I would agree that the Bush administration and corporate control of politicians have both greatly endangered the future of democracy in the U.S. However, there are still powerful forces in America who have not given up the constant struggle to keep our democracy alive.

With respect to Iran, there is certainly a lot of sabre rattling going on both in Washington and in Tehran. But, I don't see it escalating into an open war. Iran is very powerful militarily compared to Iraq before the U.S. invaded. I am sure that fact is not lost on even the most ardent war hawks in the Bush administration. Besides, Bush has run up the U.S. government's total deficit by more than a trillion dollars since he took office, mostly to finance his Iraq fiasco. China has financed the U.S. invasion of Iraq by buying U.S. treasury bills. I don't think they are going to loan the U.S. any more money to help it destroy their future oil supply from Iran.
Iran is currently the biggest player in Iraq, aside from the U.S. Any attack on Iran by the U.S. would make the current violence aimed at U.S. troops in Iraq look like a Sunday picnic with fried chicken, pie, and ice cream by comparison. I think that even Bush and Cheney are not stupid enough to attack Iran. They do, however, have some influence on the supplies of refined gasoline available to be imported by the Iranian government. I am sure that the Bushies will use any means of economic pressure at their disposal to manipulate Iran. Is that smart policy? Probably not. Well, neither was invading Iraq.

Anonymous said...

naj:

I respect both Khamenei and Ahmadinejad.

One is a scholar of Religious Sciences of Islam, a scholar of Hafiz, and a Literary man who was almost killed in an assasination attempt by the MKO.

The other is a war veteran who risked his life for his country, obtained a Ph.D. in Traffic Engineering (part of Civil Engineering) worked for years in the provinces and go to know the problems of the Iranian people first-hand.

I still remember he consoling one of our POWs. The man was a pilot who had been shot down during the first days of the War of Sacred Defense. He had been in jail in Iraq for 18 years. There was a ceremony in which Khamenei was meeting some POWs and giving them honors etc. The man jsut broke down and started crying when Khamenei was raising his rank; put his head on Khamenei's shoulder and began crying.

I will never forget that [Death to Saddam & Ba'ath - Long Live Khomeini!]

Mr. Khamenei, due to his courage, has carried the nuclear dossiere so far.

Mr. Ahmadinejad has visited every Iranian province since his election with the other members of the cabinet.

Only last week he met with a group of economist who had criticized his government's economic policies. He and his ministers met the critics for 6 hours.

I find all of that quite worthy of my respect and yours as well.

pen Name

Naj said...

i may know mr khamenei from even a closer angle Pen!

Re Ahmadinejad: I am not living in iran to respect them or not. I like what ahmadi nejad says I don't like how he plays the game though; his lies are plenty.

nunya said...

Iraq Minister: New US-Iran talks set

BAGHDAD — A new round of U.S.-Iran talks focusing on the deteriorating security situation in Iraq will be held Tuesday in Baghdad, the Iraqi foreign minister said.

Anna said...

pen Name:

For the first time I probably feel some little problems with what you are trying to convince me of ... but please don't take it personally! I feel me as a friend of you as well as I am a friend of Iran, even I love it, even if it may be hard for you to imagine that and I have some very dear and beloved friends there.

I am doing here what you expect me to do, be assured. Btw. that's the most normal thing on earth!

We are facing here an up-coming of right-wing and pretty xenophobic, rassistic politicians here, believe me! They must be prevented! Because long since Switzerland isn't any more the "island of the happy" amidst war, as it was during WW II. It's in comparison still a very rich country ... after all the huge amounts of money of all sort of criminals and war-criminals too are "resting" in the Swiss-banks ;-) n'est ce pas. But there is a sneaking dividing of the society going on, due to globalization also here lots of working places got lost, lots of people are living with the help of the socialworks.

And: Switzerland owns a tradition of neutrality! Sometimes getting a bit undermined though by supporting certain "systems" ... for example that of Israel. Our Minister for foreign affairs got extremly attacked last summer because she has critisized Israel too because ot its "selfdefending" war agains Lebanon last summer and not only the Hizbollah! And recently she got extremely attacked again because she offered Iran mediatoric speeches/help in the case of the stagnating nuclear issue and along with intrenationally expected preconditions for talks at all. And so on. And yes, as already mentioned, a certain wellknown (!) upcoming of "radical rightist" thinking and mentalities me and with me many others are actively opposing.

And Switzerland IS affected by the hegemonial US/zionistic agenda and the globalizational objectifs of the world-concerns. We can't know yet what exactly will be resulting of all this. But Switzerland still has a glorious image but there are already huge problems with worklessness and so on and on. Also Switzerland is amdist no longer overlookable socially paradigmatically processes.

Kheyr peesh

Anonymous said...

In regards to US & NAZI Comaprison:

Unfortunately acts by the executive branch of US has caused the constitutional order to be in grave danger.

The key is that the destruction of the democratic republic is being done in a step by step fashion that makes it appear to be legal, through Congress and the federal courts.

Congress has been passing laws that make conduct legal that previously was illegal and would indeed have gotten someone impeached and removed from office. But not now. And the Bush jr administration has deliberately taken actions that it knows will be challenged in federal court, but has been rolling the dice that the federal judges presently on the courts of appeals and the U.S. Supreme Court, as opposed to the federal trial courts (district courts), will not strike them down.

To trace this would require a long article or even a small or not-so-small book.

And also since this is late in the thread, here are some quick examples.

The John Warner National Defense Authorization Act of 2007 (H.R. 5122), which became Public Law 109-364 when signed by the the president on 17 October 2006, says in part, in section 1076, that--

"(a) Use of Armed Forces in Major Public Emergencies-

(1) The President may employ the armed forces, including the National Guard in Federal service, to--

(A) restore public order and enforce the laws of the United States when, as a result of a natural disaster, epidemic, or other serious public health emergency, terrorist attack or incident, or other condition in any State or possession of the United States, the President determines that--

(i) domestic violence has occurred to such an extent that the constituted authorities of the State or possession are incapable of maintaining public order; and

(ii) such violence results in a condition described in paragraph (2); or

(B) suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy if such insurrection, violation, combination, or conspiracy results in a condition described in paragraph (2)."

[Now here is part of paragraph 2]

"2) A condition described in this paragraph is a condition that--

(B) opposes or obstructs the execution of the laws of the United States or impedes the course of justice under those laws."

There is no congressional limit imposed on the president's exercise of this "authority", which is not limited in duration (parse the tricky language below) and which is not subject to ratification by and with the consent of Congress.

Subsection (b) says--

"(b) Notice to Congress- The President shall notify Congress of the determination to exercise the authority in subsection (a)(1)(A) as soon as practicable after the determination and every 14 days thereafter during the duration of the exercise of that authority."

Notice that the president only has to notify Congress every 14 days under subsection (a)(1)(A), and does not have to under the vague section (a)(1)(B). Of course, subsection (a)(1)(A) is grossly vague itself.

Note, too, that this new authority is not limited to deploying the National Guard
domestically, but also includes the "armed forces", meaning the military.

Congress, in the Homeland Security Act of 2002, established a secret, internal security apparatus in this country for the first time, something that is an anathema to, and always unnecessary in, a free and stable society.

The Real ID Act of 2005 (H.R.1268 and Public Law 109-13), which was buried in an emergency supplemental appropriations bill, makes your state drivers license or ID card a national ID card, under the legal gimmick that "a Federal agency may not accept, for any official purpose, a driver's license or identification card issued by a State to any person unless the State is meeting the requirements of this section."

On the federal court side, Jose Padilla, a U.S. citizen, was seized on U.S. soil, placed in a military jail,
charged with no crime, denied access to a lawyer, and was subject to "no touch" torture.
When the U.S. Supreme Court was going to review his case, he was transferred to the federal court system and charged with a crime, and that trial court has not dismissed the indictment for governmental misconduct.

The practice of "rendition", or detaining persons and sending them to foreign countries to be tortured, remains in place, as does the indefinite dention facility at Guantanamo Bay (Gitmo)--not stopped by Congress or the courts.

The list is long and is getting longer. All now made legal.

To make this heppen required the PsyOp of September 2001 and the hype of mass media.
That operation was extraordinarily successful. It prodded Congress to pass autocratic laws and adopt the impossible idea of a war on a technique or tactic, which is what the "war on terror or terrorism" propaganda device is. It has affected the attitudes of judges on the federal courts who, rather than blocking the autocratic behavior, meekly defer to it.

You see, you cannot impeach and remove from office, or charge with treason, or even sue for money, a person in the executive branch of government who is doing something that a vague law passed by Congress says can be done, and that federal courts have not prohibited.


Posted by: robt willmann | 22 July 2007 at 01:39 PM

Ten years ago my ears twitched [metaphorically]when Dick Morris, referring to something innocuous, talked about proceeding by "little baby steps." I "realized" that Little Baby Steps was a general MO.

Thus they have been given their Enabling Act. Much of it anyway.

Anna said...

Pen name:
btw. what or who are you exactly meanings by saying this?
That others, such as those mentioned above, are in fact looking for Iran to help them.

I can assure you, believe me, this is exactly not what I am trying to do. To the contrary! Iran will help hereslf, if only one would leave him doing so and he was not an the agenda of the morons.

What I am concretely doing re "helping" Iran is to reveal all the propagandastic demonizing of this country. You can't probably even image even what cluelessness about Iran is reigning also here!
All that most people know here about Iran, "thanks" to the "war against terror" and since Iran has become the heart of the "axis of evil" is the uniformed propagandistic lies as it is spread in the international mass-media. And that's all they know and they simply believe it, apparently willingly, it's so comfortable to know who is foe or friend in times when everything is upside down (sarcasm off)
I am writing against this ignorance and unholy simplmindedness and beliefs ... and I regard as a duty as somebody just too well knowing where the construction of (useful) enemy-images is leading to, all over again.

Naj said...

Anna,

by "the above", Pen meant Tajiks, Shiites ... etc.

Mohamed said...

Hello Naj,

I'm forwarding this link to your reades who can read Arabic. It is about the most popular Egyptian opposition newspaper, widely read and widely respected. The arepresenting Sadam as a hero who protected the mddle east from the evil Iranian enemy

Mohamed said...

Oh, it seems that the link didn't come out for soem reason!


http://www.elosboa.com/elosboa/issues/538/0100.asp

Anonymous said...

Anna:

Naj is correct.

I meant the smaller and weaker states around Iran who need help and look to Iran for assistance.

In regards to the Swiss:

I hope that the Swiss people can continue with their tradition of neutrality.

The Swiss have no dog in the Judaism-Islam War in Palestine.

pen Name

Naj said...

Pen:

Re Switzernad's neutrality:

Switzerland is located in the conjuncture of big powers: Italy, Germany, France; none of these countries are petty miserable ones like the neighbors we have surrounding Iran.

None of Switzerland's neighbors are in awe of switzerland.

Switzerland's geography is not very inviting; which troops want to climb the mountains and walk the cows?!

Why would switzerland join anyone in any war? What would it have to gain? What would it have to lose? A country that is so comfortable devided between its french, german and italian population, without any of those stupid ethnic quarrels, doesn't gain anything from aliance with any one versus the other.

But, the swiss very comfortable served both the Jewish and the Nazi banking and safe-keeping interests.

I thought you are not in favor of moral neutralty and you believe that there is a god other than MONEY and PEACE that should rule the world and as such you are willing to bring Iran to the altar of "shahadat"!!!! I sugest Iran act like Switzerland and say yes both to Jews and americans and to Arabs and Palestinians!

Anonymous said...

naj:

All governments have a moral duty to defend their citizens. Governments are not moral actors - individual are moral actors.

The Swiss Government's first duty is the defense of her own citizens. She does not have a duty to defend others. The Swiss Government has been able to keep the Swiss people safe and secure for 400 years. It has demonstrated that representative government and peace can exist for hundreds of years.

The Swiss are not going to the ends of the Earth telling other people how to live. They are threatening anyone. They are not telling everyone in the world how great they are. They are a self-contained, insular, and humble people. And their government reflects that as well. And I respect that.

Since Utopia or Heaven on Earth cannot be realized without God's Grace [which He has decided not to bestow on us) all that is left is the protection of the individual and his God-give rights under the Law. The Swiss Government has done that - in my estimation.

The Swiss Government maintained a policy of strict neutrality in WWII since she was incapable of fighting; she was surrounded on all sides by the Axis Powers. With her neutrality, she at least saved her own citizens from death and destruction. Whether the Swiss made money or not is irrelevant – there are many sins and a hierarchy of sins and sinful people around the world. Swiss were not the most sinful – they did not kill anyone. Yes, may be God is going to confront each individual Swiss and ask him why he did not choose martyrdom to fight Evil. But that is between God and the individual human being. [By the way, Sweden was actually buying coal from UK and selling it to Germany in WWII!]
It is not the duty of a Government to fight Evil outside her boundaries unless attacked, fighting Evil is a moral imperative for the individual not the collective. Governments are not moral - they are amoral. They are there to enforce the Laws of the Land and to Defend their citizens. Now the Law might be Evil and the people corrupt – such was the case of Germany in WWII. But it all starts from the individual. Peace is both desirable and grand. So is Wealth. Islam is not against either one; it is the substitution of either one in place of God that is the problem. In practical moral terms that means that Peace is not desirable at any price; i.e. at times we have to fight and that Wealth cannot be obtained at the price of immorality.

In Iran, we were neutral both in WWI and WWII but we got invaded nevertheless. We had to have been like the Swiss – strong enough to resist an invasion. And that is precisely what we are doing. I am not suggesting Iran becoming a martyr but when US is coming seeking a war with us, we have to fight back – this is a justified war of self-defense. If we show weakness, or be weak, we will be invaded over and over again in the future with many more dead and maimed in the future generations. One of the consequences of the War of Sacred Defense was that it demonstrated to our enemies near and far that we will fight and fig and fight; that a war with Iran will not be short. There is great deterrence value in this.

I am not sure what you mean by saying “Yes” to these assorted people that you have mentioned. You have to explain that to me.

Pen Name

Anna said...

pen Name & Naj

Thank you both. And Naj is very correct and I'd just like to refer to this sentence of hers:

But, the swiss very comfortable served both the Jewish and the Nazi banking and safe-keeping interests.
This is indeed an ugly truth.
And I must admit - out of a basical ethic understanding - that the swiss are pretty materialistically oriented, morality does not really "disturb" them, when there shows a possibilty to sell arms into war zones ... namely in Apartheid-states like for example Israel up till now and earlier to Southafrica. Many dubious financial deals are practiced with dubious figures.
Due to the country's legendaric neutrality of course it is a very safe place for everybody's money, regardless where it stems from, for example from oppressors in countries "far away" or from massmurderers.
And during world war II under the pretence "The boat is full" they sent back many jewish refugees back ... literally into death! An act of inhumanity at a "higher level" in combination with cowardice ... while dealing with the Nazis and making many questionable concessions to them.
Well, it was crazy time! But Switzerland got not taken over by the Nazis because the Swiss defeneded their country at its northern borders against them like the very last heroes - as they long time made believe the population, but because they clandestinly dealt with them.

I don't expect at all Switzerland giving up its neutrality, there is no such risk in sight.
But there ARE aspects of hypocrisy in this neutrality and they are of - say - "emotional", "servile" nature. Israel and its decadelong crimes against the Palestinians are a downright tabu! for example. We have a very active jewish /zionistic lobby! Raise your voice against those utter crimes committed there daily and against "all" Geneva Conventions!! and you are a damned antisemit.

Well, it has to do with my personal ethic standards, why the "things" I mentioned are "disturbing me a bit." But why should Switzerland - country without any mineral- or other ressourcesand thus in a larger dependity in diverse meanings of it - be an exception when it comes to such questions. That's another question. And I don't know the answer.

Kind regards to both of you.

Naj said...

Dear Anna,

Thank you for your fair comment about your country. I think Pen likes you too much to want to say anything bad about Switzerland, fearing it will offend you ;)

I just don't understand his view about how Switzerland should remain neutral, but Iran has to make an enemy of Israel on the princile of defending Palestinians!

This is perhaps bringing out one of the hypocrisies of the IRI: are they really interested in Palestinians or Hizbollah, or are they creating a front abroad to keep the war at bay?

Also, another instance of lack of logical coherence is in talkng about :if we want to be a powerful country, we have to act powerfully" ... well, I am sure Switzerlans has never stretched any muscles to show it is POWERFUL and I am sure it has never tried to take on Germany for example!

Pen is also not answering why Switzerlans COULD remain neutral during the war and Iran couldn't. I don't buy the argument of switzerland acted POWERFULLY: how powerfully?!

Naj said...

Oh dear, I just read Pen's comment. Isn't it amusing how when logic fails suddenly "god" and "sin" become omnipresent!

bwah!

Naj said...

The Swiss are not going to the ends of the Earth telling other people how to live.

So how come Khomeini went to the end of the earth to tell how muslims should live?

You Pen, yourself, are constantly offering ADVICE on how to live/think/behave in the realm of god, so how can you be honestly critical of any people who THINK their way of life is better than others?!

Maybe Americans or Nazis are/were just trying to EDIFY the world accrding to their deeply held principles?!

Daniel said...

If America/Israel attack Iran then it's game over, Red Rover! The dominoes will begin to fall as will the nukes.

It seems incredible that a whole planet full of people will be destroyed because of the foolish, fanciful ambitions of a handful of religious zealots.

Our passing will be unmourned!

Anna said...

Dear Naj

I think Pen likes you too much to want to say anything bad about Switzerland, fearing it will offend you ;)
I don’t know. I just know there are many ways to like somebody. And if we like somebody, then in my understanding, one probably really doesn’t attempt to offend that somebody. And so I would never intentionally offend pen Name, because I like him :-) But that’s not the issue I think.

(I meanwhile have read his responding re Switzerland etc. to you.)

Look Naj, and pen Name as well, one must admit, that Switzerland in general is enjoying a good reputation out there in the world. For several respectable reasons, no doubt. Among many others BECAUSE this country hundreds of years since has neither attacked other countries nor has it materially taken part in wars or armed conflicts, nor has it herself been drawn (!) into such. Long time yet after the state as such was „founded“ it was not yet consolidated. There have been partly serious inner conflicts going on, having to be cleared before then it became its form and status as everybody knows it long time since. But that’s history and it’s not a world-shattering one except the fact that they have freed themselves from the Habsburgs, so to speak, and have overcome Napoleon Bonaparte who despite all has „left“ them the recognition about the need that her single Cantons (provinces, if this here was not a word a bit too oversized) effectively have to stand together and somehow this way the will for a democrativ state was also born. It’s a very-very small country where there is simply nothing to get or to gain for the interests of other powers. In such aspects it’s a „meaningless“ country, so to speak ... well Geneva, General Dufour as founder of the Red Cross, the will to serve humanity. A Heinrich Pestalozzi this goodhearted man, starting to teach the children of the poor and so on in short.
Of course the country is very proud, and it’s a special pride,not the one of the so called great, „meaningfull“ countries. But, and that is not to deny, there exists a special form of xenophoby. In the fifties-sixties, when many of the own citizens wouldn’t make dirty their own hands anymore, they imported italians and spanish – completley other mentalities, jolly, singing, talking loud ;-) - to build their roads and houses. And they have not treated them quite like human beings at all, to the contrary, they best would have liked to fold them up like umbrellas and put them into a corner till next morning. It seems to be quite a bit in the mentality of the swiss to just peck the raisins out of the cake. There exists a deep basical suspicion about anything „foreign“, except when it’s money, because pecunia non olet, n’est ce pas. And the xenophoby actually again is rising, especially for all the people of the balkans here and the blackcolored refugees, them also thinking Switzerland is heaven on earth, it’s not. While long time since the italians already have become the darlings and „nobody“ would be without pizza, salami and prosciutto di parma. And since globalisation and „free market“ is ruling, transnational companies have the say, Switzerland strongly feels that her independity is not that autonomic anymore, one’s got to „arrange“ oneself somehow. Of course not without certain consequences! And needless to say, that the islamophoby because of all the „terrorists“ lurking behind every shrub and corner is becoming also here dimensions of histery! In fall here will be elections for the national-council! There are some real hopes, that not the propaganda-howlers from the right-wing – never distancing themselves from skinheads and neonazis! –will win massively. We do have here reasonable social-democrats and other democratic parties ans hopefully the people will not remarkably follow the nasty propaganda of the right-wing. But things are changing here! Not yet dramatically and in comparison with other countries! But it’s a fact. And not just things are changing, but spirits too. In these upside-down turned times.

As for critic on Iran. There would be points to criticize. But that’s not my task. What I am actively critizing and writing against in that weekly is the demonizing and subverting Iran, by all means and dirty as can be, by the specifically known powers and their intelligence services ... with Europe, above all Germany (!) becoming more and more a poodle of these powers.

Salam ha-ye samimane wa kheyr peesh ... to both of you! Or in hungarian :-) Szivélyes üdvözletek.

Anonymous said...

The reason that I do not have any issue with the behavior of Switzerland during WWII is that I do not consider an act of suicide to be an ethical choice. Which would have been the case if Switzerland had entered the war.

Our situation in Iran is different that Switzerland: over the last hundred years we were invaded 3 times: Russia, Turkey, and UK in WWI, Russia, UK, and US in WWII, and Iraq in 1980.

Chemical weapons were used against our civilian populations during the war of Sacred Defense.

Now we are threatened yet again.

We have to try to make the security situation around us as benign as possible. This means that we need to redue or eliminate the threats to us from US,EU, Israel, and Pakistan.

EU is not willing to treat us in an equitable manner - notice their haughty attitude in 2005 with their so-called "nuclear offer". And they never ever explicitly stated that they will oppose a policy of use of force against us. They are our potential enemies.

We have to latch unto all allies that we can get. The Shia of South Lebanon, with whom we have ties of blood and religion that goes back 400 years fell into our laps since they were invaded by Israel. We had a moral duty to help them; else we were no longer Islamic Republic of Iran - we would be another grovelling Muslim state condoning rape and murder of Muslims by Jews.

Israel & US are pursuing fantasies that are against our interests. What the Germans were doing was not against Swiss interests per se.

We have wrapped our selves in the mantle of the Prophet - and a billion Muslims are with us. Make no mistakes about that.

Protestant Christians and Jews have started a War against all of Islam; the only reason that they have not attacked us yet is because of the failure of their project in Iraq.

Switzerland was never in a similar situation. And Switzerland has a powerful military force and for decades they were building shelters for protection against nuclear war.

As for advice - m advice is freely given. I am not sitting on a nuclear arsenal that can elimiate all life on this planet and threatening people with my guns.

As Ayatullah Khomeini said: " Our sins is that we opposed America".

pen Name

Anonymous said...

to pen Name
The billion Muslims you count who will be with you are eating the American wheat given to them for free
wake up

David said...

Naj, regarding the IRI and their "support" for the Palestinian cause, I would like to add the following thought. I have to ask why does the IRI send weapons to young unemployed and disillusioned Palestinian men? They are taught by the IRI proxies Hesbollah and Hamas that Israel is the root of all evil and must be destroyed. So, the young men take the weapons, or suicide vests, and do their best to kill Israelis. Unfortunately, these actions only result in even more harsh crackdowns on Palestinians leading to more suffering and deprivation. Now, I must ask another question. What would happen in the Palestinian territories if the IRI invested their money into building businesses that employed these Palestinian young people instead? These young people would then have something positive to live for and a better life to work for, would they not? It just seems to me that the IRI has the ability to greatly improve the lives of Palestinians if they choose to do so. I recently commented at another blog that the solution to terrorism in Northern Ireland was finally achieved not by military force, but by economic investment. The young people of Northern Ireland were given opportunities to work at well paying jobs and suddenly they began to enjoy life and to live in peace.

Anna said...

Dear pen Name

Switzerland is simply kind of a lucky-bag also - if not mostly! - due to the fact, that this country simply is of absolutely no (!) interest for the powers around her or for those over what ocean ever.

And as about Iran: I know, I know, I know. And believe it or not, pen Name, it hurts me to see Iran having become the very heart of this lunatically defined "axis of evil" and being in the focus, threatend and sanctionned in acts of almost no more beatable hypocrisy and double-standards and -speak and having been already betrayed by the war with Saddam who at that time was a darling-s.o.a.b of western interests.

And if Iran would get attacked, that is to say "punished" again, according to the plans of downright criminal morons - who apparently by no means can be stopped in their crazy geostrategical ride, growing more dangerous day by day - it'd just break my heart ... and saying this is not just an empty pathos.

Anna said...

to anonymous (not pen Name!)

PLEASE do not inform yourself about the world, its countries and peoples by Fox-News and alikes!

With this recommendation!

A.

Naj said...

David:

Iran is not sending "weapons" to unemployed palestinians and doesn't encourage them to suicide-bomb!

I am disappointed David to see you are buying into this new line of propaganda that Iran is selling explosive belts!

Iran has been supporting Palesinians and Hezbollah financially. Please keep in mind that it is ISRAEL that made Palestine a large PRISON, that blocked transfer of money to the Palestinian government, that has made Palestine and economically UNATTRACTIVE place for investment.

To blame the "disillusioned" (???!!!) Palestinian struggle on Iran, and ignore ISRAEL is showing me that your governments propaganda is working!

Naj said...

David,

I am openly admitting to you that I am utterly utterly disappointed about your comment.

"what if Iran invested in education?"


ARE YOU FORGETTING IT IS THE FREAKING ISRAEL WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL THIS?????????????????

I really feel like throwing my arms in the air and stopping this blogging business! I feel the world is filling up with moon-walkers!

Naj said...

Anna,

Iran is being punished because Iran is challenging the moral authority of the so called "moral" world of Western democracies.

The only/best way out for the whole world is to accept Iran into the league of powerful nations; and then, it will play the game. this will not happen under bullying.

All these wars, all these encounters, have not bent us. We are the most stoic nation that you can find in the Middle East.

"You want to keep Arabs from dissent, keep them fed; you want to keep Persians from dissent, keep them hungry" ... the British manifesto in the turn of the century!

Iran is in the eye of the storm and I think it was very clever of the IRI to bring Iran to the eye of the storm, otherwise the tornado would have crushed it silently long ago.

Iran is claiming its right to self-determination, political independence, and economic power.

Iran is debunking all notions of Islamic retardedness.

Iran's biggest mistake is its lack of trust for Iranian activists. It needs to embrace them, even if she perceives them as velvet revolutionaries. And this is giving excuse to those who blame it for human rights abuse. To those who can easily forget how abusive their own society is: a society where gangs can kill an 11 years old in cold blood in a birthday party.

Anyways, Iran will be fine! With or without a war.

Anna said...

Naj,

Iran is being punished because Iran is challenging the moral authority of the so called "moral" world of Western democracies. ... ff.

I fully agree and that's the base and why my deep respect and love belongs to Iran ... so to speak. Iran is not to be a puppet, moving according to the selfinterested strip-pullers ... something those just are not capable to understand, thus not to accept as a fact, because they are not "used" to and obviously never were forced to get used to! That's there greatest problem, a huge psychologic problem ... for these selfdeclared, "peaceangels" helpers and saviours! But the consequences of such "selfunderstanding" to face and to take is "genereously" left up to the the "should-be freed and saved" ... "if you do not want to be my brother I will destroy you" ... somewhere an advice in the bible (sic!)

And I fully share your disappointment about David's comment. I never will understand or find out how such gets generated: By disinformation from "somewhere" or by not wanting to see the realities, thus the facts ... not even after 60 years of apartheid and crimes against Palestinians, who over and above recently had the chutzpa to democratically (!) elect a "terror-organisation". This people being held in outragous inhumanity, against Geneva-conventions, against Un-resolutions ... "designed" as long until Israel and the zionist lobbies will finally agree too, JUST TO BREAK AND DSIREGARD THEM EVEN BEFORE THE INK HAS DRIED!!

Keep up your good work and the energies it affords.

ddmmyyyy said...

Being similar to Nazis or not, I feel like a young child in a nasty divorce settlement.

I'd say 'god help me' but that would make it worse.

Anonymous said...

David:

There is a war between Israel & Palestinian Arabs.

This war has metastisized into a war between Judasim and Islam.

We support our side, you support yours.

I hope that Iran is sending weapons to the Palestinians - they are the moral equivalents of the French Resistance & the World War II partisans.

And please do not waste my time about terrorism; you do not like the method of delivery of explosives to their targets, is that it?

The war shall go on.

pen Name

Anonymous said...

naj:

Iran is not diminishing her rights at all.

In fact, by being ready to e attacked and then moving forward she is sending a message that she will safe guard her independence and power.

The United States, EU, and other aspiring imperialists have not yet comprehended that they cannot be a great military power, a great economic power, and at the same time, protect their populations against the winds of globalizations at the same time. The world has changed around them and they have not yet grasped that. This is their last gasp.

As for Iran's biggest mistake: it was not to leave NPT in 1998 immediately after India and Pakistan exploded their weapons.

US & EU want to change the orientation of our state for us to take into account their interests. We are willing to take their interests into account but at a price. They think that price is too high - they think sanctions and war is cheaper.

They shall learn otherwise - just like their lackey Israel and Saddam.

pen Name

Naj said...

ddmmyyy,

:) Yeah I agree with you. It really does boil down to that. As Pen says, Americans think the war a cheaper than paying the settlement price.

David said...

Naj, I have not bought into anyone's propaganda. I try my best to see the world as it really is in an objective and non-emotional way. I have previously said in comments in your blog that the Middle East would have been better off if Israel had not been created. Well, that was an idealized statement. The facts on the ground are that Israel exists and is not going to disappear. I do not favor Israel over the Palestinians. Both Israelis and Palestinians are equally human and equally deserving of life and the potential for happiness. Violence in any form is not conducive to ending the decades of conflict. The Iranian government is supplying weapons and training to Palestinians. The ultimate result of this is that more Palestinians are going to die and more are going to suffer. I stand by my assertion that the Iranian government could help the Palestinians to live better lives by investing in the development of the Palestinian economy rather than providing them with weapons.

Naj said...

The Iranian government is supplying weapons and training to Palestinians. The ultimate result of this is that more Palestinians are going to die and more are going to suffer. I stand by my assertion that the Iranian government could help the Palestinians to live better lives by investing in the development of the Palestinian economy rather than providing them with weapons.

And I stand by my assertion that it is ISRAEL that does not allow the conditions for economic development in Plestine.

Iran is not providing training for suicide bombing. Iran is providing financial help. If Palestinians choose to use it in SELF-DEFENSE, then it's their business.

David, there was a survey out a few years ago that Palestnians are the most educated and secular of the whole Arab world. I hope to be able to dig it up again.

Your assumptions about possibilities of economic development in Palestine completely ignores the FACT of Israeli buldozers on the ground!

Anna said...

a@David
How could Iran help to develop and improve the economic situation for the palestinans? How?
While they are continuously deprived of land by illeagal settlers? While their agricultures are destroyed. Or that few (!) that still may be able to produce: fruits, dates, olives, oliveoil, greenery they are NOT ALLOWED to export it themselves. Israel is exporting these products! Btw. not declared as palestinian products. And holding back the largest parts (!) of the proceeds! In Gaza the people gets no access to the sea for fishing. Who is trying to do it nevertheless is driven back by military-boats!

See this EXEMPLARIC report below. Exemplaric because this is part of everydays palestinian life: Deprivation, destruction of existential basis, senselessness, cynism. Who, apparently, are the terrorists? Just those under way with a semtex -belt or those committing deprivation, destruction, senseless violence sanctionned by the state?
http://antonyloewenstein.com/blog/2007/07/03/jewish-support-for-brutality /

Here in this video no blood is flowing, just trees are killed, palestinian apricot-trees. And enjoy the beautifully sad ballad

David said...

Naj and Anna, you both have made some good points about how Israel is not allowing the Palestinian economy to develop. I don't know why Israel is doing this. Israeli leaders should understand that economic opportunities for Palestinians would be a win-win for both sides. Maybe this is part of Israel's "collective punishment" of all Palestinians for the violence committed by a small minority. I have thought for years that this is a very stupid strategy on the part of Israel. I am more than willing to agree with both of you that economic strangulation is a form of violence.

Naj, I am aware that many young Palestinians are well educated. However, when they finish college, most have no jobs waiting for them. Other Arab countries in the Middle East aren't exactly throwing open their doors to welcome these young men and women either. Obviously, Israel is a big part of Palestinian's problems, but so are other countries. For decades, Palestinians have been pawns in the games of larger countries. Even when Palestinian workers are allowed into other ME countries, they are not always well treated. For example, I know that Saudi Arabia is not friendly at all to its guest workers.

Israel has already stopped occupying Gaza. I think it is time they left the West Bank too. I think they should also remove all Israeli settlers who are there. What else should Israel do? I'm certainly open to any constructive suggestions. I wish and hope the Israeli and Palestinian leaders can be open, as well!

Anna said...

David:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1270038.stm


The spiritual leader of the ultraorthodox Shas-Party (part of the Knesset, Israel’s parliament) Rabbi Ovadia Josef, has in a prayer called up for extermination of the arabs.

The very same language and more than just rhetoric! – and as well expression of a rotten but selfelevating style of thinking and considering - is spoken by the Yesha-Rabbis-council ... the official spiritual (!) mouthpiecec of the settlers.

Doesn’t matter, David, that the mentioned article is from 2001. Because it’s just one (1) expression of a ruling spirit ... a state of mind, a mentality with basical relevance for the selfunderstanding of Israel and its policies! Israel, this country, notabene in possession of nucelar weaponry (who was ever upset out there in the world about THAT?), that would not be capable to exist at all on the basis of own efforts.
Or take an Avigdor Liebermann, a downright neo-nazi too, but not the only one, just an exemplaric one.

If you really want to know more about this 60-year old story of oppression and arrogancy do read what for example an Uri Avnery has to say to all this.

A Europe as well – above all Germany, guilty for the Holocaust! – completely blind for the ongoing crimes committed NOWADAYS, also by those who once were the victims.

Who knows out there in the world about these realities? Who wants to know? Who cares? Who is upset? Nobody!

While „the world“ by inscenation by US and IL – possibly at the edge of WW III - now permanently just gets „sensibilized“ for the threats coming from „islamistic terrorists“, coming from Iran, coming from Ahmadinejad as „a new Hitler“ and so on and forth. In order to produce „useful“ enemy-images in order to deflect the public-eyes from own terrorism and warmongering, starting wars, allegedly to fight against terrorism, on the base of downright lies ... see Iraq.

Saying this, I do not speak out of such as hate ... but may be out of some contempt and sadness at a „higher level“, generated by the never ending, obviously never ever to be answered question: Who actually is always the real victim? I say it’s the truth! All over again.

Anna said...

Another glance at the very reality and as everybody could know about if one wants to face the reality.

Much space for hope as practically as unfortunately is not left.

AMIR TAJIK: Israel is often touted by the western media as the only democratic state in the Middle East. Is that true?
JONATHAN COOK: No. Israel is a democracy if you are a Jew, just as apartheid South Africa was a democracy if you were white. But that is not what we usually mean by democracy. At least a fifth of Israel’s population is non-Jewish, most of them Palestinians, and they are systematically discriminated against in all spheres, including in access to resources like land and to political power, and in control of immigration. I have exposed the myth of Israel’s self-description as a Jewish and democratic state at length in my book Blood and Religion. It is a necessary myth in the West because it justifies the huge sums of aid and military support the West gives to what is effectively a rogue, highly militarized ethnic state.



http://en.baztab.com/content/?cid=3794

read on

Naj said...

This post is getting so cluttered that people cannot find their own cmments :)




==============================
David
===============================

Israel has already stopped occupying Gaza. I think it is time they left the West Bank too. I think they should also remove all Israeli settlers who are there. What else should Israel do?

David, in all you say, you are still ASSUMING and BUYING INTO THE PROPAGANDA that alleges Iran of wanting to wipe Israel off the map.

THIS IS A LIE, THIS IS A FALSE NOTION.

If Israel can make peace with Palestinians, if it can compensate them for years of misery, if it can integrate them into society, if grass root peace initiative in Israel and in Palestine start bearing fruit, then no one, neither Iran, nor the Swiss and New York Zionists, nor Iranian Mullahs, nor decadant arab regimes will be able to make turs out of Palestine.

But get it right: IRAN IS NOT AGAINST ANY NATION OR COUNTRY.

Iran didn't RECOGNIZE South African apartheid regime either. And it had nothing to do with Judaism. Iran's opposed to zionist occupation and apartheid in Palestine, it has no beef against Israel.

You see, you government is ot shy to mobilize its military to change regime in Iran. So why would Iran be shy to mobilize its forces to change regime in Israel?

Do we say America wants to wipe Iran off the map when it claims opposition to the Iranian Regime? Do we call Rice a new Hitler?

I don't know why our schools don't dedicate more time to basics of "logic" in out curricula!

Anna said...

Apropos "Wiped off the map" ... the product of false translation! Meanwhile a several times proven fact! But who want's to recognize it? Nobody! For what Ahmadinejad allegedly (!) "said" is just too "useful" for the US/IL-propaganda. How long will "the world" willingly believe all these lies and at what and whose cost?

"Wiped off the map" ... The rumor of the century.
by Arash Norouzi

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=NOR20070120&articleId=4527

nunya said...

pen Name,

There is a very basic flaw in your thinking process when you state:

"Military-Industrial Complex is just a symptom of a symptom."

When you state things like this is a war between good and evil, or that this is a war between Islam and Judaism it sounds ignorant. Now keep in mind that when I use the word ignorant, it is not an insult. Ignorance means that you just haven't been exposed to all the information, or you've only seen one side of the story.

Before you go off all half-cocked and write a novel for me, go read this, and keep in mind that this man died before WWII started.

Major General Smedley Butler's War is a Racket

IT'S JUST BUSINESS. WAR IS A VERY PROFITABLE BUSINESS.

nunya said...

or read this:
The Arms of Krupp 1587-1968 by William Manchester

Or how about the history of
three thousand years of wars and empires in the Middle East in a two minute shockwave presentation?

Naj said...

Nunya

What you say is not contradicting Pen Name's views, nor is it informing them.

He is not arguing that war is not profitable. But he speaks about the ontology of war. It is not the business interests that started off the chain of war and aggression.

the businesses only LEARNED that war was profitable and thus contributed to mongering it.

As such, the war IS a syndrome of a symptom. And I agree with Pen.

Naj said...

Nunya,

War and MIC is not a modern invention of the West.

And again, Pen's historical views cannot be as easily discarded.

nunya said...

No, it probably wasn't the business interests, it was probably the ugliest cave man in the tribe, who was having a tough time claiming a mate, so he killed the competition.

Fucking men.

Naj said...

Nunya dear,

Never underesimate the war-mongering role of the women, my dear.

Men fight wars, but women are those who fuel them. At times actively but most of the times passively.

Naj said...

oh I meant the other way around: at times passively, but most of the time actively!

Anonymous said...

nunya:

Thank you for your comments.

There are definitely material gains to be had in case of war. Business is just our contemporary phrase for that. Yes, money can be made but the losses are almost always comparable or exceed - when all is included.


But you are discounting the joys of killing, the excitment of the war, the joys of pillage and rapine.

You deal with domesticated males in a benign environment. You are probably unfamiliar with people who posess the ethos of the warrior.

This war in Iraq is not about Iraqi oil.

This war in Palestine - at one time - was a war over land. It no longer is so. It is a religious war by any other name - but there are few like me who is willing to acknowledge the truth of the situation.

I am not suggesting that in these wars there is always a Good and an Evil side. I am suggesting that men enjoy war.

What does US have to gain - materially - from the war in Iraq? And please spare me the Oil story: yes it is there, no it is not germane.

Why was US fighting in Vietnam? Or in Korea? What was the point of it? Not monetary reward - I can assure you.

And the winners of WWI, what did they have to show after they won? Nothing! And the European societies, over the last 100 years, gained nothing materially from their wars.

That is how I see the world. A group of at times mad creatures that are in a State of Fall. So I ask: "How long Dear God? How long? For how long do we have to go through this cycle of madness and death?"

On a personal level, I regret the fact that Israel has managed to drag Judaism into a war with Islam. It did not have to be so.

pen Name

Naj said...

Pen,

Are you sure it was Israel who dragged Judaism into war with Islam, and not Arabs who draped their nationalist agenda in a religious one?

Naj said...

What does US have to gain in Iraq?

This is not US who is fighting the Iraq war, it is the "business" interests, which go beyond oil, that do so.

War IS profitable!

And there are always IDIOTIC testostrone-dominated monkeys who are willing to fight it.

Not all the mankind is war-loving.

In monkeys, certain genetic programming (influenced by environmental factors) that creates aggressive animals.

read up on Stephan Suumi's work.

Anonymous said...

naj:

In regards to who is responsible for dragging Judaism into a war aganist Islam - the greed of Israelis and the un-critical support of many many Western Jews; possibly due to Shoah.

In regards to agression: monkeys are irrelevant. Yes we are primates but not entirely similar. Any way, chimps also show agression.

The reasons for US going to Iraq were manifold but business interests were not prominent among them.

I think you do not comprehend Power.

pen Name

Naj said...

I think I comprehend power very well, because I have lived it.

And I think you should study more of biosociology before being able to throw up blanketing and dismissive comments as you do.

nunya said...

"You are probably unfamiliar with people who posess the ethos of the warrior."

bwaaa haaa haaa haaaa rofl

oh, great one pen

haa haa haa heee heee heee

Vietnam?

global shipping lanes

naj,

You are correct about the business interests being behind wars, for centuries in fact:
Ever since the invention of coins monetary and military history have been inter-related to a degree that is both depressing and surprising.


"And there are always IDIOTIC testostrone-dominated monkeys who are willing to fight it."

Girrrrrll, I love you! :) :)

Anonymous said...

naj:

The trouble with sociobiological approach is that, based on animal models, it tries to infer the Human. It cannot grasp the complexity and nuances of human life, not even in principle. I am not denyng some of the insights of that approach, hwoever.

You and nunya an many others are looking of rationalistic causes of war, disregarding the role that emotions play in human life - in my opinion.

Much of marital strife is emotional and not rational, for example.

pen Name

Naj said...

Pen,

The biosociology today (done on human models) is conclusively united that emotions and rationales are the two sides of the SAME coin: biology!

I still suggest you familiarize yourself with sociobiology.

Naj said...

Nunya,

uhmm ...

I think I love men more than women, in general. They are more useful and less complicated; more trustable in friendship and more fun in conversation.

As long as they don't smell, don't look at me lustingly, and don't assume they know-it-all; they are my best friends :)

So don't insult them on my behalf ;)

Naj said...

Nunya:
I said:
It is not the business interests that started off the chain of war and aggression.

I fully agree with Pen's assessment of MIC being the "symptom of a symptom."

Our difference is that his diagnosis is fall from god's grace; my diagnosis is human's industriousness!

Anonymous said...

US, Britain, Iran, Russia, Germany, France and many others have had imperial projects.

What we say about Iran recently talking about Bahrain as an Iranian's territory?

nunya said...

Pen,

Much of marital strife is because men lack the capacity to understand or appropriately deal with emotions.

There's a difference.

nunya said...

Naj,

Men are easier for beautiful, intelligent women to manipulate.

They are not more trustworthy than women.

You don't insult women on my behalf, I won't insult men on yours.

Deal?

I have male and female friends, most of them for more than ten years. Trust takes time, and risk, and work.

Peace

Anonymous said...

And I am one of the few men who truly likes women and what they have to offer.

pen Name

Naj said...

Nunya,

No need for a deal. I didn't insult men nor women on anyone's behalf.

I am a woman myself, right?

I disagree with stereotype of men not having or understanding emotions. It is FALSE.

I also disagree with the notion of men being manipulated by smart women. It takes a smart and intelligent and self-assured man to be attracted to a strong woman and to admit woman's power over him.

And on that note, I suggest we move back to the topic of the post.

Anonymous said...

nunya:

The Fall of Man is a conception first encountered in the Revelations of the Prophets. It was a burning metaphysical insight that liberated those who grasped it from their delusions of perfectability of Man and Heaven on Earth.

Sciences can helps us dis-entagle some of the material causes that underly the Fall of Man. Science might posit that because of structural differences in the brians of males & females, men are less capable in this or that area. Or discover that socities are male-dominated because of the endocrine system of human male. Or Science can point to the affinity of mammalian males for maintaining a hare, of females to explain adultery, polygamy, rape, etc.

All these attempts do not make the Fall of Man any less real; only more so.

If one is to be hanged, the Scientific Knowledge of how one dies of axsysphiation (sic.?) or the genesis of the laws under which one is being put to death is not going to make material difference to him, will it?

pen Name

Anonymous said...

nunya:

I have no close friends; male of female.

When I was young, it seemed necessary to have friends.

Not so much now.

Unless a woman is like Siberia, i.e. everyone knows where she is but no one wants to go there, I have found it difficult to have female friends.

I do not believe such a friendship is possible - there are too much sexual undertones. In my judgement and experience.

pen Name

nunya said...

Ok Naj,

Let's start with this:

Did they know that Iranian president Ahmedinejad never said Israel should be "wiped off the map?"

My question is: Which Americans is she referring to?

Those of us who suffer through idiotic foreign policy decisions, or those who are making the idiotic foregn policy decisions?

Some of us bother to find out what the man really said, and if we don't speak, read or write Farsi, we have to go on translations that may or may not be unbiased, and then, what we know of basic human nature.

Naj said...

aaahhh, I see.

Naj said...

Nunya:

My question is: Which Americans is she referring to?

Who "she"?

I have to confess I do not read long comments unless the convey new information that I do not have or have not heard already.

Ahmadinejad has to learn that there is a world full of enemies, and a huge gap of communication created by mis-translation. Once he comes to this "political" realization, he stops shooting off his mouth with STUPID poetry!!! The man's speech in the UN made sense, but you weree lucky to not hear it in Persian! The man sounded as if he was giving a religious sermon!

little indian said...

Hi Naj,
There is much discussed here.

I cannot judge who or what is true or factually and morally right. From a distance I see and try to understand.

You may have read my views of the present situation. But I accept I do not know the intricate details and so unable to join the discussion.

I would like to comment on what you and a reader have written,

"...the Sunni Arab states to be esctatic about an attack on Iran. I think Russia, China, and Indian leaders would be shedding crocodile tears..."

"...We really don't have any friends other than ourselves."

Isn't it sad, when humans do not expect friendship and help at times of need from fellow humans?

How did we fall apart? Is it just religion, democracy or lack of it, oil or petrocurrency that has led to this? I think it dates back by millenia.

Humans are instinctive empire builders, and have always taken great pleasure in extending dominion over populations distinct culturally and ethnically from themselves, through violent and atrocius means, and dominated them through coercion.

Every empire in history has fragmented humanity a bit further, and when they imploded, left behind resentment and hatred.

Atrocities can never be forgiven nor forgotten.

Humans (unfortunately) also have long memories, in minds and in writings, and passes down that hatred and mistrust through generations. Never to be united as one "humanity" again.

Someone once said, "Those who live by the sword shall die by the sword", I will adapted that to, "Those who lived by the sword may die by the sword".

The wheels of war has been set rolling for centuries, we can only helplessly watch.

Naj said...

Little Indian,

I fully agree with you.

At times, I do feel disappointed and hopeless, but I don't believe we are doomed.

I think, the most dangerous path for our humanity is to adopt a fatalistic view of our humanity and succumb to it.

We should not raise arms unless in self-defense.

Hatred is no justification.
Revenge is no justification.
Fear is no justification.
Power is no justification.

We can attain peace. All those mad Europeans have learned their lessons agter the WWII and have united. So should the rest of the world.

Anna via naj's comment recovery system said...

Dear pen Name
disregarding the role that emotions play in human life - in my opinion.

Much of marital strife is emotional and not rational, for example.


You seem to be one of those few knowing and ADMITTING that it's emotions "playing" an utterly decisive role, and not rational considering! But it's a fact, that it's mostly men who consider themselves to be the ones who factually decide rationally while emotionality was just a typically female "thing" ... and above all "sounding" a bit disqualifying. That's a so called mistake, in my opinion. But - heaven forbid!!! - I don't want to start a "new" discussion!

I just wanted to let you know, because I liked that sentence of yours maybe because of its relative "rarety value" and if spoken out of a man :-)