Sunday, October 25, 2009

132 killed, 520 injured ...

In a bombing in Baghdad
In one day
In one second
...
...
freedom
to bomb
...

83 comments:

Parvati said...

I too am devastated - did a long posting about it here

The blasts were so powerful (literally tons of explosives!) that some kind of outside covert-support appears probable. Maliki's said to be casting suspicions on Syria but dunno, could well be Saudis?

kellie said...

The 'freedom to bomb' line seems trite, Naj. It's unfortunate that removing fascists from power does not remove their ability to murder. We all hope Iranians have better fortune when they remove the fascists there from power.

Have you seen Iraqi Mojo's post?

Naj said...

Parvati, Kellie ... in cultures where firing arms in the air is a sign of celebration, slaughtering sheep a gesture of well wishing, self-beating a manifestation of grief, killing a promise for life, this shit will happen ENDLESSLY!

Saudis are the most hypocritical ... but what can you expect from a nation that championed "slave trade" ... for them, human life is worthless, material interest at all cost is what drives them. That things about Saudi funded Saddamist propaganda's just a little example!

Kellie, I agree, sometimes it is safer to keep fascists busy with power to keep them off of the back of ordinary people ... I think fascism needs to be uprooted culturally, psychologically --and physiologically.

German said...

[an attempt at finding an optimistic idea]

- world community was able
[with hecatombs of sacrifices, unfortunately]
to even bring these maniacal Germans after two world wars somehow to their senses, starting with the year 1945 -

[not really being quite sure, if thst sounds optimistic at all] remains with best wishes
German

Naj said...

German,

The fascists of Germany were not uprising against something they perceived as "unjust". The German fascists were after world domination; they were a powerful nation who assumed they will bring about a GLOBAL peace and prosperity if they hegemonized the world. If I am to compare any maniac to GErmans, I will compare the American ones.

The blast in Iraq, or other suicide attacks in Iraq are completely incomparable.

On the other hand, after Germany was defeated, BECAUSE of the threat of the Eastern Block, the victors (who were in fact Russians, although the western countries took the credit for "their" American heroism!!) went to bed with ex-nazis; after all they could count on Nazi's flawless management and administrative infrastructure.

I wonder if the Nazis were marginalized and persecuted like the Iraqi Ba'thists, how they would have reacted.

Interestingly, teh german protesters to this Americanized nazism ALSO reacted in terrorist and violent ways in Germany in the 70s, no?

kellie said...

Hi Naj, I don't quite understand the 'keeping fascists busy with power' idea. In power they can kill the people both in the prisons and the streets, out of power they just kill in the streets.

Also don't understand the distinction betwen Nazis, Baathists and AlQaeda. The difference seems just one of scale. As for " marginalised and persecuted" Baathists - ??? The democratic route is open to them. To understand why they bomb, a film German may be familiar with explains it: The Testament of Dr Mabuse.

Naj said...

Kellie,

Fascists in power kill selectively. They don't mass murder people indiscriminantly.

I hope you are not one of those who thinks America has brough democracy to Iraq? Because, I hope the history of the past century has made it abundantly clear that "democracy" is something that grows bottom-up; and America has never been able to install democracy ANYWHERE!

Parvati said...

"The fascists of Germany were not uprising against something they perceived as "unjust".

I think rancour at the grossly punitive conditions of the Treaty of Versailles and their consequences for Germany did much to fuel the Nazi fire?

In the case of Italian fascism, "irrendentist" resentments certainly played a major role.

P.S. Scan down to read about the "foibe" - charming late WW2 practice of throwing political/ethnic rivals and their relatives alive by the dozen/hundreds into mountain crevasses. Btw, Italian "red" partisans who fought with the Yugoslav communists are known to have participated in these horrors without a qualm. And hand-in-hand with the Nazis, the diehard Fascists in the "Salò Republic" massacred entire villages, tortured with glee and hung partisans by the dozen from the lamp-posts of the squares and belvederes of some of our prettiest northern towns and villages... :-(

Better leave it at that I guess, because if I really get started on the subject of the horrors of "reds vs blacks" late-WW2 massacres and revenge-killings in this country - all amidst massive US air-bombings that killed hundreds or even thousands of civilians at a time - I'll be here typing busily until next week.

So... IMHO, no country or people can claim or be blamed with a "monopoly" on barbarism - the experience of war/civil war barbarizes, the experience of living in a police-state barbarize, practising or suffering violent repression barbarizes, extreme poverty barbarizes... IMHO it's all a massive vicious-circle/spiral. :-(

Naj said...

no country or people can claim or be blamed with a "monopoly" on barbarism

Indeed; and the fact that a lot of barbarism has stemmed from Europe AFTER THE AGE OF ENLIGHTENMENT is a great irony!

Now back to my favorite country, Iran ;)
Despite all hooha that us the enlightened green and our so called fanatic Ahmadinejadist fanatics engage in, Iran is not a disaster zone! People are passionately engaging in debating and even swearing at eachother; but we can still be proud that we are not a genocidal nation--and although we have survived the Mongolian genocide; "revenge" is not part of our national or folkloric history (resistance is, but not revenge). We are raised to take our revenge in a nice and velvety way! And for that, I am grateful!

Naj said...

i wish you could read the national outpour of disgust at the woman who took revenge on his son, by killing behnoud shojayee ...

Naj said...

revenge OF her son ...

Naj said...

Parvati, I didn't think you were slurring anyone :)

But this is kind of a citation that ticks me off:
Rigi, who was described as a man who "used to fight with the Taliban and is part drug smuggler, part Taliban, part Sunni activist,"by Alexis Debat, a senior fellow on counterterrorism at the Nixon Center and an ABC News consultant who recently met with Pakistani officials and tribal members, told the station,

Frankly, if this Alexis dude was called Abulghader mir-muhhammad-Rigi I could take him serious! For heaven's sake; even IRanians who live in that country do not know about Baluchis; and I know hos STUPID the MSM consultants and Washington think anks are, so I am afraid their "analysis" amount to nothing for me!

Remember these "pundits" dragged America to war!

Your interview link doesn't work; can you resend please.

I will dig up some interviews to transcribe once I have a bit more time. Will be swamped for the next few weeks with other projects :(

I am also going to find a moment to speak to my father about Jundollah; it's a topic I have never brought up with him. He used to run Balouchestan, so he should be able to tell me a few things about it :)

kellie said...

Hi Naj,
on your comment "fascists in power kill selectively, They don't mass murder people indiscriminately," if the fascists in power in Iran are still selective, we can count that as some small mercy, but I don't think the killing by Saddam's regime could have been described as such.

Whatever one's judgement on US action in Iraq, it is Iraqis who are trying to build democracy there now, and these bombs were clearly intended as a blow against that.

Naj said...

Kelli, re bombing in Iraq; PRECISELY!

So as you see, installing a "democratic" system doesn't guarantee that it is suitable for a given system.

Saddam was a crazy man; I give you that! But; frankly, did he kill more during his rule than America's actions in Iraq have in the past few years?

Parvati said...

Yet-again on Jundullah -- it's got me so curious I'm indulging in a major google-research binge instead of working!

So: here's the link to the Washington Times Jan 2006 article with interview-quotes (sorry I don't know how to make plain links clickable): http://bit.ly/4tYCgK

And here's the wiki on Jundullah - at the foot of the article you'll find dozens of original source-links
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jundallah

Note:
1) Iranian Jundullah's a very recent group, said to have been founded in 2002...and the entire jihadi-terrorism phenomenon that's now tearing Pakistan apart dates back no further than the end of the US+Saudi+ISI proxy-war against the Soviet Union in Afghanistan.

2) I've also read somewhere (can't find it now but it's recent, a Reuters article) that Rigi and his followers are/have become Deobandis: hyper-strict fundamentalist Sunni sect founded in the 19th cent., South Asian equiv. of wahhabis. The Taliban themselves are Wahhabi-influenced Deobandis and so are all the Pakistani jihadi-terrorist outfits - every single one of them is from the extremist fringe of the Deobandi movement, including Lashkar-e-Jhangvi and its charming shi'ite-massacring sister-organisation. Admittedly this isn't a Deobandi-friendly source, but it's informative:
http://bit.ly/16rPqo
And so is this:
http://bit.ly/2NXl7h

Article from the Indian intel-and-analysis doodah SAAG, headed by former RAW chief B Raman - who's usually very Baloch-friendly (Pakistan only-naturally accuses RAW=India of supporting the Baloch nationalist movement in Pakistan, btw):

http://bit.ly/3klC5s
"The responsibility for the violent incidents in Iranian Balochistan in the past as well as for the latest one on October 18, 2009, has been claimed by an organisation called Jondollah (Soldiers of Allah), which projects itself as the People's Resistance Movement of Iran and not as the People's Resistance Movement of Sistan-Balochistan. It has no links with any of the Baloch nationalist organisations in the Balochistan province of Pakistan. In the past, there were reports of its having links with the anti-Shia Sipah-e-Sahaba and Lashkar-e-Jhangvi of Pakistan.(...)The Jondollah seems to be more a Sunni extremist than a Baloch nationalist organisation."

As this rant seems to confirm?

A statement attributed to Jondollah after the May 28 attack said: "This incident has been organised in response to one week of Omar Denunciation Ceremonies which the fanatic Shias and security forces organised to curse Omar, the second Caliph, whom they blame for killing Fatema, the daughter of Prophet Mohammad. The false and fabricated narrative has been officially recognized in Iran as a fact and therefore, Iranian authorities have initiated a large number of denunciation ceremonies in which the second CaLiph is cursed by the speakers and audience (...) The Shia leaders and followers are famous for what they call Taghiya, which means lying for the sake of Islam but now it has been turned in Iran as an official way of misleading and deceiving the public and opponents, saying something in the public and doing something else. (...)The authorities have blamed the US for hiring terrorists who carried out the suicide bombing. Jondollah categorically rejects this claim. It does not have any kind of relationship or any kind of support from the US or any other country. This action was in response to systematic and regular insults to the beliefs of Sunni Muslims in Iran and wide discrimination against the Baloch people.

.........

2) It's very unusual for the Anglosaxon press to back up anything whatsoever that is said by the Iranian regime, so it's striking that both the Iranians and British/American journalists and "experts" are saying Rigi's Jundullah has "strange connections" with the CIA and MEK on one hand and with notorious jihadi-terrorist outfits on the other.

Smoke, fire... ?? Shadows, mist and fog??

Naj said...

Sorry Parvati, none of the sources you provided strike me as really useful :)

Here's a book I recommended before:
Baloch Nationalism; its origin and development

Parvati said...

If you do get a chance to ask your father what he knows/thinks about the "jundullah" entity, I'd be very interested in a quick summary of his views! :-)

Naj said...

I sure will. But they won't speak on the phone; so it would take a while.

But really, the book I gave you the title of is worth a glance.

And, I have heard that boy Rigi speak; he is adamant that he is not a religious fanatic, that he has been trying to cooperate with the IRI, that he doesn't LIKE or justify violence, that he is FORCED out of any other option. He is adamant that he is not funded by anyone, other than the hatred instilled by the corruption of the IRI regime. (to that I fully attest). He wants their rights and dignity, religious and social respected! He is soft spoken; well spoken and sincere sounding. He has a nice accent; he looks charming. And he may very well be part of the Balouchi legend already. These are warrior people, PROUD PEOPLE; and yet delicate, warm and TRUSTWORTHY people! Balouch never goes back on his word. Balouch never lies--this is their national myth--this is how I grew up with them; and to my shame never lerned their language, nor alphabet.

The Balouch ALWAYS made me feel safe ... far more than the sneaky, hypocritical others!

Minorities in Iran need to be invested in; their language and culture NEEDS to be protected, their religious beliefs MUST be respected. These are our NATIONAL wealth; our national resources. And we have, and are still wasting them. In Iran, there has been a LONG policy of impoverishing the border regions, because there is always this fear that heir prosperity will empower their cesessionism ... far from the truth ... these minorities DO NPT WANT separation, nor violence; they are REACTING to the extreme injustice, social and economic injustice done to them.

kellie said...

Naj, on your question about who killed more, I continue to have difficulty understanding you. Is this some kind of murder olympics? And when you make your count, are those killed by Baathists before the invasion counted as killed by Saddam, and those killed by Baathists after the invasion counted as killed by America? Are those killed by Musab al-Zarqawi and his followers counted as killed by America? Are those killed by Sadrists counted as killed by America?

And why do you continue to focus on America? Today's bombs were not aimed at America, and did not come from America. Fascists in Iraq, like fascists elsewhere in the world, have once again shown their willingness to slaughter their own countrymen. Why should this mean democracy is inappropriate in Iraq? Would you grant a minority of murderers a veto over the will of the majority of Iraqis?

Naj said...

Kelly; I have given up on us understanding eachother!

My reference to America came from YOUR first comment:"It's unfortunate that removing fascists from power does not remove their ability to murder.

The act of "removing from power" was DONE by America!

kellie said...

Naj, Iraqis fought and died to remove those fascists from power too. Yes, I know how they were betrayed by Bush 1, but your obsession with arguing about America seems to be blocking you from solidarity with Iraqis who continue to fight to defeat fascism in their own country.

Naj said...

Sorry Kellie, bu tthe one who seems to be "blocked" here is you, and your tendency to get DEFENSIVE beyond logic everytime name of America is mentioned!

Anyways, a chaque un son gout!

I am VERY surprised, however, that you are DEFENDING Bush 2 ... no wonder!

I really think we should keep our "solidarity" to ourselves untill we are asked! For the record, keep your Solidarity with Iran to yourself.

Kelly, the person who has been OBSESSED with America is you; not me! It might be freudian guilt that makes you drop here with your "solidarity" because you saw

"Freedom
to bomb"

in my post!
;)

Anonymous said...

Should we add the Iran-Iraq war tally to saddam's tab also? If we can add, then Saddam killed more people than the US war in Iraq.

The most important thing is not the number, every life is precious. The "death" culture so celebrated by the current rulers of Iran is so detrimental to Iran. I think this is part of the reasons why the people took to the streets this summer, they want to move beyong the culture of "death".

I was against the Iraq war, and I am still against the Iraq war. I think Saddam being a dictator does not justify the chaos that have been created by the Iraq war. However, a democratic Iraq is still better Iraq ruled by Saddam.

"Freedom is never free"

Naj said...

Anonymous,

I agree.

But because I am not an Iraqi; I cannot judge or comments whether this price is what I bargained for. So, I just watch sadly. But I KNOW one thing for sure:

I AM NOT WILLING TO HAVE IRAN PAY THAT PRICE FOR FREEDOM ... I prefer Khamenei to an Ameircan-imported freedom. And I prefer dealing with Russia to dealing with France! (once a hypocrite, always a hypocrite ...)

Naj said...

A--
hi! :)

Anonymous said...

Hi :)

"I AM NOT WILLING TO HAVE IRAN PAY THAT PRICE FOR FREEDOM"

Naj,

People have paid the price, and people are still paying the price for freedom. Neda, Sohrab, and all those killed during this summer protests have paid the price. All the people who have been killed over the years by the regime for speaking out have paid the price. All those who have been imprisoned and those still in prison have paid the price.

I think the question is: what price are the people willing to pay?

When they scream loudly: " ... my life is for Iran" what do they mean? Are they willing to go all the way? Do they think they are serving a course greater than themselves? What would propel people to even consider this option?

I think the "leaders" in Iran miscalculated the resolve of the people. Perhaps, for the first time, the people on the other side of the ideological spectrum are also willing to give their life up for their course. This is unfortunate because the people just want the system to reform itself, and people should not have to give up their life for this.

Naj said...

A--,

I think people should have a CHOICE. Neda and Sohrab CHOSE to walk to lion's lair. When a bomb explodes; or falls, i who will be a victim have had no choice.

There is a difference between victims of political activism and victims of war.

As for "my life is for Iran", sorry ... but this i don't buy. There are SO MANY WAYS to spend one's life for Iran, as a "greater cause than geographical borders and nationalism."

I, for instance, choose to protest loudly exile myself out of Iran, and dedicate myself to opening windows on Iran. My sister, on the other hand, chooses to shut up, stay in Iran, and dedicate herself to educating people of rural Iran. Is my sister's cause less than mine? If I go to Iran and get imprisoned, am I a bigger hero than her who has CHOSEN to stay in the prison, and push its walls from within??!

Roozbeh said...

in cultures where firing arms in the air is a sign of celebration, slaughtering sheep a gesture of well wishing, self-beating a manifestation of grief, killing a promise for life, this shit will happen ENDLESSLY!....

nice observation.. i will remember this!

Naj said...

Roozbeh,

i like your observation too :)

Anonymous said...

"I think people should have a CHOICE. Neda and Sohrab CHOSE to walk to lion's lair. When a bomb explodes; or falls, i who will be a victim have had no choice."

But doesn't the constitution states that people can protest peacefully? They felt that their constitutional rights would be protected by the "leaders"(It probably might be wishful thinking on their part) Should they expect to be killed because they made a CHOICE to take part in an act that is constitutionally protected?

Shouldn't the people in Iraq who died as a result of the suicide bombing also expect some sort of "protection" from their leaders? They know that the streets of Iraq are not safe, yet they made the CHOICE to go out on the street.

That is my point Naj, we have so much to offer, like your sister who has made the CHOICE to teach. My point is it should not come to a situation where people think that they have to give up their life to make a point.

Because the people took to the street, the entire country are now aware of how unIslamic and undemocratic the regime is.

Are the CHOICES that by your sister any better than the people who made the CHOICE to go out on the street?

I don't think this question could be answered.

Naj said...

I don't know the answer myself; and I ask that of me EVERY SECOND of the day.

"what" can/should "I" do?

But I think something in these recent events have been VERY illuminating:
the fact that LEADERLESS, we are all aiming towards one goal. I think this is a great moment in our history: "khod rah begooyadat ke choon bayad raft"

I think the one form of government Iranians have not experiences (not withstanding Reza Shah's maybe) is a "military" installed one! If we survive this one--which I am SURE we will--then we have a plethora of governmental experimentations in a span of 100 years ... let's call them vaccination ... that will immune us to ...

Naah, let's not be naive, we are still surrounded by ... naah, let's not be paranoid ... maybe Iraq and Afghanistan will ... naah let's not be foolishly optimistic ...

Shrug

Our greatest city is on FAULT lines, and sleeps on the lap of an active volcano ...

...

nature
nurture
culture
conjuncture
...

We can't simplify us, we can't reduce us to things that can be easily explained ... therein is the beauty, the legacy ... WE are a CREATIVE NATION ... therein lies our freedom ... in our creativity and FREEDOM from wishing an indefinite insurance on life ... we are orientals after all ... we carry our freedom within ...

German said...

Dear Naj,

- "peace! peace!" - to quote one of your readers [when I reacted to his comment a bit too energetically] some weeks ago.

As to that sometimes passionate discussion I feel somehow guilty to have contributed to its vehemence, which wasn't my intention at all.
Apologies. I will avoid in future to refer to Germany, understandably causing misunderstandings.

I just wanted to emphasize, that there are confused minds, turning (unknowingly?) criminals, at any time, in any place, following any religion, in any system.

I don't agree with the view, that this confusion leading to violence and bombs might be found mainly among Islam(ists). This view needed some relativizing, I thought, mistakenly. Apologies. I'm very sorry. I'm serious.

That's why - mistakenly - I went back into history to prove, that an incomparable, inexcusable, highest degree of confusion and crime was elected into power in my country and did everything (knowingly!) - backed by the majority of the population - to destroy humanity and human beings in their own country and in particular in the neighbouring countries. Germany, in the middle of Europe, not Islamic, but inhabited by people of Catholic and Protestant denomination, usually pious church-goers, ca. 200 years after the Enlightenment. But humanity, i.e. world community, defeated this human-created hell, though the “satans” were not taken to account.

Quite correctly:
the people having committed these incomparable, outrageous crimes went on living as if nothing had happened, gave their offspring, i.e. us, the impression that the "Nazis" had been a strange, small group of idiotic people who everybody was in reality opposed to.

We young people/I had somehow the impression, that precisely in 1945 this small numerically negligible group called "Nazis" had mounted their spacecraft in which they had obviously somehow landed in Germany in the 30s, and had travelled back to ???? probably to the planet Mars?:
for everybody in Germany whom we, the younger ones, talked to, had been against the “Nazis”, in "inner emigration" [that was the exact, precise, overused expression we were bombarded with] .

Having passed the age of 15-20 years, when you start seeing through things a bit, that is, exactly 20 years after 1945, the generation I belong to started asking serious questions and started doubting, in the 60s.
The bloodstained perpetrators of the crimes, i.e. more or less nearly everybody that is (though hard to imagine), had not been called to account at all. Has any of the judges been sentenced? No. etc. etc. etc.

Thus I - only a few years ago - had to find out, that the Socialdemocratic minister for education [Jürgen Girgensohn] in the province North Rhine-Westphalia,
responsible for barring me from practising my teaching profession, had been a member of the SS, THE German gangster-killer-murder troop dripping wet with blood. This "Berufsverbot"["professional disqualification" under German law] lasted a period of 10 years – after finishing university. The reason for being banned from practicing my professin was:
being active for a communist (maoist) organisation, in other words, for distributing leaflets and flogging the "central organ", the newspaper, of that maoist organisation.

Whatever I think of that naive, odd, absurd and - if in power, dangerous – ideology now:

my experience & impression remains:
a generation of killers allowed itself to take action against members of the next generation just for their devious thoughts.


But there is one thing which I am absolutely certain of:

the interest of the readers/visitors discussing here is the well-being of (the nations in the Middle East, and in particular of) Iran and its breathtakingly brave, intelligent, fabulous citizens.

So

1) apologies!

and

2) thanks!: for enabling this fantastic forum of exchange of views of people from diverse nations and places!

German

Naj said...

German, no need to apologize. (you are such a true German ;) all my German friends like to apologize and self flagellate for reasons unknown to me ... I joke with them that they like to keep the spotlight on themselves :D )

Peace to you too!

I'll come back and read yoru essay tomorrow morning. Hitting the sack now!

Naj said...

Okey I couldn't help reading it now:

We young people/I had somehow the impression, that precisely in 1945 this small numerically negligible group called "Nazis" had mounted their spacecraft in which they had obviously somehow landed in Germany in the 30s, and had travelled back to ???? probably to the planet Mars?:

This is interesting. You see, history books make it sound like "people BECAME apathetic about politics after the war", but, if they were NOT apathetic BEFORE the war, then how did they let Hitler do what he did?

German, you really don't need to explain yourself an apologize; I didn't misunderstand you, nor did you say anything that was remotely offensive. I understood the analogy you were trying to draw; and I just expressed that "technically" the analogy did not hold. And as I have often said, yes "criminality" is more a psychological state than an ideological one.

So, were you part of the Baader Meinhof to be barred from teaching?

German said...

just distributing stupid leaflets and trying to sell a stupid maoist newspaper - criminal acts indeed!

German said...

- Postscriptum -

The motivation why my ancestor-generation became Hitlerites is difficult (for me) to understand.

One IS the reason, quoted quite correctly by our friend PARVATI:
they felt humiliated by the armistice- and peace-conditions of World War I ("reparation payments" of huge sums to the victors, in particular France; territorial losses; and just: having lost the war).

Two - a scapegoat for the defeat had to be found :
a) why not irrationally pick on the jewish Germans (some of them were highly cultivated and/or rich), in particular as they were to be envied at the same time
b) of course the Socialists-Communists (who had opposed the W W I - an imperialistic war in their view - deciding in parliament against the credits to finance the war) who were agitating amongst civilians and in the army against this war; the WW I ended with a revolution, i.e. the soldiers just stopped fighting; that's why the Socialist-Communists were, too, counted among the main scapegoats; the Communists were popular for the aforesaid reasons

Hitler and his group presented themselves as fighters against the results of that war and of those responsible for the end of WW I, i.e. the jews and the communists.
In their outward conduct they imitated the Socialist-Communists: red flag, particular kind of fascist salute similar to the Communist "fist", calling themselves "National Socialists", singing very similar-sounding and similar-worded songs etc.
At the same time - the Germans were religious people ! - Hitler presented himself as the incarnation of the "Providence" [his very words]; Goebbels, his propaganda minister compared the war to the "divine service" [his very words] (a word used for Catholic Mass or Protestant Church Service).

Funnily, most people seemed amnesiac at that time having forgotten that they, the Germans, somehow had started or at least supported the breakout of World War I.

A very brief last word to the role of the Soviet Union:
before W W II Stalin and Hitler agreed on partitioning Europe, e.g. on dividing Poland among them, one half of Poland becoming German, one half becoming Soviet-russian. This Hitler-Stalin pact seems to have encouraged Hitler extremely.- Any opinions and reports by soviet-russian people that Hitler was also planning to attack the Soviet-Union were answered by Stalin having these "messengers of unpleasant news" killed, as before he had the intellectual, political and military elite killed:
one important reason that Hitler was that successful for a long time when attacking the Soviet Union.
Stalin had exterminated everyone who disposed over a minimum of brain cells.

Has Russia recovered yet
a) from Stalin?
b) from Hitler?
My educated guess: in both respects - no.

So what to think of Hitler and the Germans - the answer is too easy.

So what to think of Stalin and the Soviet system - ? shrug ?
[(my subjective answer: a bloodthirsty tyrant, too - though to a somewhat slightly less degree than Hitler and his followers)]

Why are we discussing all that?

Trying to find out what oppression in general is all about and where it might lead certain people ?

Ttrying to find ways/methods/options to prevent that "Himalaya" of disrespect, intolerance, hate and oppression and never let that happen (again), even in its initial stages ?


All the best

German

kellie said...

Naj, read the comments again. You are the one who keeps wanting to turn this into an argument about America. I am defending Iraqis fighting fascism in their own country. That fight was begun by Iraqis and it is being finished by Iraqis. If you feel unable to show solidarity because of your America-obsession that's unfortunate, but Iraqi democrats don't need your "freedom to bomb" sarcasm.

Naj said...

lol!
Kellie; suit yourself!

Roozbeh said...

Naj! I just realized your blog system sees my email (which has all my details!) Does this mean next time I am visiting iran, I'd end up being raped in Kahrizak? have been enough molested throughout my life don't need this!

Naj said...

Roozbeh,

I don't have your email; that's why I asked if you have a weblog :)

re being raped in Kahrizak, lol!

(we all know things are not THAT bad, really!)

Roozbeh said...

good!
no i don't have a weblog, but I consider myself an intellectual. I once got two starts for a composition I wrote in the second grade. :)

Naj said...

LOL!

Well I hope your second grade compositions didn't get you to jail!

Parvati said...

Great discussions here! A hug to German, btw - his posts resonate with me too, only wish we had more time/space to delve into all the implications.

To Kellie: if you're interested in Iraqi views I can send you links to several English-language Iraqi blogs on how Iraqis themselves view the US/UK invasion and its consequences - they make tragic reading. In general, practically all English-speaking Iraqi-Arab bloggers - Sunnis and Shi'ites alike - see the war pretty much in the same terms as Iraq's famous "shoe-thrower" Muntazar al-Zaidi: "This is a farewell kiss from the Iraqi people, you dog - this is for the widows and orphans and all those killed in Iraq!" Polls show the vast majority of Iraq's population agrees: 62% of Iraq's population view Al-Zaidi as a national hero, his fans-level in the Arab zones of Iraq is around 85-90%. You may think their judgement "unfair" - but there's no questioning the fact that that's how both Iraqis and the ME in general view - and will continue to view - the US invasion/occupation of Iraq.
...

Re the horrific Baghdad terror-bombing, seems it's now been claimed by an AQ-linked group - which makes sense. Also IMHO makes a helluva lot more sense for such goons to be covert-backed by the region's Wahhabi-fanatic state than by a secularist-type one whose own govt. has much to fear from Sunni religious extremism?

And here's yet-another link to an article on recent Jundullah terrorist bombing in Iran, this one focussing on possible/probable Saudi covert-involvement:
Saudi-Iranian hostility hits boiling point by N K Bhadrakumar - Asia Times.

kellie said...

Parvati, sorry you're mistaken, it's Naj who wants to talk about the US invasion, not me. I was talking about Iraq NOW. The bombs were not aimed at the US, they were aimed at Iraqis.

Parvati said...

This attack - like the previous ministry-bombing last August that killed over 100 Iraqis - is Al-Qaeda's work, like all major acts of terrorism committed in Iraq since the invasion from the hideous Ashura massacre of March 2004 onwards. When the US invaded Iraq in March 2003 this deadly international terrorist organisation, which had not previously been present in that country save for a tiny foothold in the US/UK-presided Kurdish zone, took advantage of the chaos caused by the invaders' onslaught with accompanying deliberate destruction of all the Iraqi institutions that had previously kept it out (police, intel, military...)and triumphantly descended into that now-helpless land, flooding it with hundreds and hundreds of foreign jihadis, suicide-bombers, proselytists and propagandists under the leadership of the Jordanian criminal Al-Zaqawi.

The results are still before our eyes: "thanks" to the invasion, Iraq has become chronically infested with the very-same bloodthirsty international terrorist organisation the US's post-911 rampages - the so-called Global War On Terrorism - were allegedly intended to "destroy"... and for which Iraqis are still paying a bitter price.

You say: "The bombs were not aimed at the US, they were aimed at Iraqis." Yes indeed. But although this may give Americans some pleasure, Iraqis only-naturally view it somewhat differently.

Parvati said...

... so Kellie, I hope you now begin to understand why it is IMPOSSIBLE for any honest person to discuss these - or any other - mass-murderous terrorist bombings in Baghdad without simultaneously talking about the military invasion, devastation and occupation that gave rise to them?

Naj said...

Parvati; hat tip! :)

Anonymous said...

Tehran: Foreign Agents Behind Iraq, Pakistan, Iran Attacks

Iran's supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei said on Monday that the bloodshed in Pakistan, Iraq and Iran was the work of foreign agents and aimed at unleashing Shiite-Sunni conflict, in a reference to the role of the US.

http://www.iraqupdates.com/p_articles.php/article/61172/refid/RSS-latest-27-10-2009

Anonymous said...

If we can add, then Saddam killed more people than the US war in Iraq.

The B*** killied millions in 24years not in six yers. that the diffrence..
IF US keep doing what doing in Iraq for 24 dyers what we end up?

kellie said...

Parvati, as I'm sure you're aware, Musab al-Zarqawi was in Iraq BEFORE the US invasion, given shelter by the Baathist regime.

Crimes are the responsibility of the criminals that carry them out. The US is responsible for what the US does, and I am not here to defend the US, but not one ounce of guilt should be lifted from the shoulders of the people now bombing Iraqis, bombing ministries of the sovereign Iraqi government, and random innocent Iraqis in the streets. The US is on the way out from Iraq. How long will the fascists be allowed to manipulate the anti-Americanism of the gullible to excuse their murderous actions?

Naj said...

Kellie, you seem to be having a conversation with yourself; as you are not saying anythig that other commenst on this list have not said.

YOU decided that my "freedom to bomb" was trite; and ever since you have been resonating in your own little wooden box!

In favor of saving digital space; I suggest we move on to other topics! Of course, Kellie has a blog, and she can perhaps continue her exchange and venting offs there. :)

kellie said...

Naj, Iraqi Mojo's blog has put me right, you and Parvati are correct: America is God.

Naj said...

KEllie,

since you don't seem to have intellectual capacity to READ and analyse things; I shove this in your face:

Parvati, Kellie ... in cultures where firing arms in the air is a sign of celebration, slaughtering sheep a gesture of well wishing, self-beating a manifestation of grief, killing a promise for life, this shit will happen ENDLESSLY! (comment by Naj October 26, 7:27 AM)

Now go play elsewhere.

kellie said...

Thank you for that Naj. One question, in reference to your comment of October 26, 2009 5:13:00 PM, is America also responsible for all sheep slaughtered after the invasion?

Naj said...

Shrug!

What an IDOTIC question!

Kellie; go play elsewhere! In America! Good Gal!

kellie said...

Well, you've offered two explanations, all Iraqi deaths following the invasion are the fault of America, or they're the fault of Iraqi culture. I'm wondering which of these simplifications you give preference to.

Naj said...

Since I am not "simplifying" anything to either of the factors your facile mind has deduced; then I don't have an answer to give to your IDIOTIC question ;)

Listen; as much as I enjoy this game; I have things more important to tend to; so forgive me for rejecting your further comments on this thread!

Naj said...

Since I am not "simplifying" anything to either of the factors your facile mind has deduced; then I don't have an answer to give to your IDIOTIC question ;)

Listen; as much as I enjoy this game; I have things more important to tend to; so forgive me for rejecting your further comments on this thread!

Iraqi Mojo said...

Hi Naj and Kellie! Nice blog, Naj. Kellie linked to your post and I read a few of the comments. Lemme take a crack at this:

"in cultures where firing arms in the air is a sign of celebration, slaughtering sheep a gesture of well wishing, self-beating a manifestation of grief, killing a promise for life, this shit will happen ENDLESSLY!"

Good one Naj, but I don't think this shit will happen endlessly. I certainly hope not. The only people who promise heaven and virgins for suicide bombers are the Wahhabi scum of earth, and Wahhabism comes from Saudi Arabia, not Iraq. If we can figure out a way to keep the Wahhabi-influenced 3arab jarab out of Iraq, we Iraqis can continue to slaughter sheep and fire our guns in the air to celebrate football wins and we can continue to to flagellate ourselves, all without suicide idiots mass murdering Iraqis! LOL:)

Seriously though - in 1981 I was in Baghdad and I heard the sounds of celebratory gunfire - to celebrate the assassination of Anwar al Sadat, naturally:) There were no suicide bombers, no Wahhabi-influenced 3arab jarab mass murdering innocent Iraqis back then. Only Saddam and his henchmen were mass murdering Iraqis and Iranians, and the Wahhabis were funding Saddam's war.

Self-flagellation is done by hardcore Shia, and they do it only for a few days during Ashura. The majority of Shia do not practice self-flagellation. I'm sure you know this, since you are Iranian:) Iraqi Shia practiced self-flagellation before Saddam made it illegal, and there were no suicide bombings back then. There were no suicide bombings in Iraq at all before 2003. The suicide bombers have actually targeted the Iraqi Shia, whether the Iraqi Shia self-flagellate or not. The Wahhabis are convinced they will go to heaven if they kill infidels, and to them Shia are infidels and they have discovered that killing Iraqi Shia is quite easy.

Furthermore, sheep are slaughtered all over the world, not just in Iraq. Humans have been slaughtering animals as an offering for the Gods for millennia. In modern times, the slaughtering of a sheep and sharing its meat with friends and neighbors is done to celebrate an occasion, and it's done in many cultures. In 1980 after we moved into our house in Baghdad my parents brought a sheep and hired a guy to slaughter it in the front yard. It was disturbing, but it reminded me that the meat I eat comes from a living thing, an animal with a brain and organs just like humans have. Two weeks after that, Iraq invaded Iran.

Anyway, thanks for posting about the horrible bombing, Naj.

And thank you Kellie for your nice comments about Iraqis. I never thought the Baathists would ally themselves with the Wahhabis, but it seems they have, and together they have fought "imperialism" by mass murdering Iraqis. It has nothing to do with Iraqi culture. It has everything to do with Baathists wanting to regain power and Wahhabi idiots wanting a shortcut to heaven.

German said...

"peace", friends
- it's boring to agree on everything,
if we agree on a few things,

like:

wishing the brave Iranians some success on the road to more democracy - that grand nation equipped with this courage, history and intelligence has definitely deserved success, support and sympathsý.

Isn't that enough to agree upon ?

Naj said...

Mojo nice to meet you
as you noticed my post was neither about Iraq nor it's ight for democracy
I have little expertise on the topic to feel qualified to speak on behalf of or in advocacy of Iraqis cause
my post was out of shear pain I felt when heard those numbers which have e en further increased
500 injured innocent unsuspecting victims makes me think about the trauma I felt about death of 70 protesters in Iran you some times need perspective
unfortunately not all are familiar or sensitive to emotional reactions and unfortunately it is such individuals who want to be sensitive and in siolidarty but lack the cultural context and sadly are so in love with the sound of their own Imaginations that confabulate beynd reason and context
this is why I wish they just stayed out of OUR politics and focused on the responsibility of theri own gover
ments

German said...

Dear Naj,

a subjective view (being a bit disconcerted):

the - often vehemently - expressed opinions are evidence of you(r blog's competence of) sparking off an intensive debate because of you(r blog's) covering issues which obviously are of considerable pertinence/importance.

The visitors of your blog seem to be burningly interested in the questions addressed by you(r blog) and - of course - finding your view highly important: - why else would someone bother to air his view(s) and even to try to convince someone else (you) on your "forum" ? -

My personalinterpretation of the 61 "hits" focussing on your topic:

a respectful, though unconscious [help me, St./Saint Freud], sign of/bow to/curtsy to your gift of formulating issues of some burning relevance,
a sort of sign/bow/curtsy, which - admittedly and understandably - is often (very) difficult to decode, on account of its vehemence and on account of the commentators' sometimes (highly) vivacious temperament(s)
in this trailblazing, Himalaya-vanquishing spirit of
"We will not save the world today! But perhaps tomorrow!" - hmmh? -

- as you have quite correctly stated.




Thanks for your blog

Naj said...

:)

Sweet GErman; as always I have difficulty deciphering what you say; but I am sure you are trying to spread peace and justice and kindness.

I just relized that typing comments from an iphone is even more prone to typos :)

So here's a CORRECTED version of what I said before (with perhaps new typos :D

Naj said...

Mojo nice to meet you!

As you have certainly noticed, my post was neither about Iraq nor it's plight for freedom & democracy.
I have little expertise on the topic to feel qualified to speak on behalf of, or in advocacy of Iraqis cause. I have not heard Iraqis struggle for democracy; and although the ignorance may be mine; I am afraid I cannot be brought to believe a few children dancing around Saddam's falling statue are reresentative of Iraqi quest for democracy and freedom.

I ALSO respect the right of nations to NOT SUBSCRIBE to the notion of "democracy". I do nto believe democracy is a universal notion; lest a universal truth. It is perhaps one that is most suitable for maintaining a verisimilitude of "peace and order"; and in my personal view it is a "fair" system, as much as nature can be fair.

The reason fro my post, which was a mere 4 lines of emotional expression of a of shear pain I felt when I heard those numbers (which have since increased); and the count of > 500 injured innocent unsuspecting victims makes me think about and contextualize the trauma I felt about the death of 70 protesters in Iran. Sometimes we need perspective. The Iranians who were killed chose to demand the "Freedom to peacefully assemble"; the Iraqi's who died in this attack did not choose, had no freedom in being killed or not. They didn't meet their death expectantly.

Unfortunately some people who are not familiar or sensitive to emotional reactions, yet wish to be (or pretend to) sensitive and in solidarity, miss the points.

Lacking the cultural context, and sadly too in love with the sound of their own imaginations, they choose to ignore the views expressed and fall in the trap of their own confabulations. Hinting at them, tring to give them a bit of correction here or there, seems to not get you anywhere! Then they start rampaging from blog to blog and ... I just find it entertaining!

It is for this reason that I wish, and often recommend to my readers, that I wish them stay out of OUR politics. My intention of blogging in English is to give a "local" context to the people of countries whose governments, for right or wrong reasons, are involved with mine. And I hope that my blog will help them better inform their representatives of their national and international duties and stances.

In this blog, I am ADAMANT that
1) We are solely responsible for our future
2) We are neither in need of sympathy, nor meddling
3) We are a complex nation, hard to decipher for ourselves, and yet exciting and fun and someowhat charming!

So I find it totally irrelevant when someone comes here and starts a tantrum that I am anti-American!

As far as I am concerned; I do not give a damn about America. I am not an american, I don't live there, work there or anything for that matter. So I find it rude when people come here and start their inquisition :)

Naj said...

Mojo,

"Self-flagellation" In the comment; I used it rather metaphorically, referring to teh practice of self beating (e.g. women clawing their faces and hitting their chests) which is a middle eastern practice--from what I see in films.

German said...

Dear Naj,

as to your last two statements (the first, the orthographically improved one):



correct and fine!



All the best

German

Naj said...

:) German; thank you.

its imposible i type things correctly. unfortunately i am shamefully sloppy in that department. :)

Parvati said...

Micro-comment for Naj on your "self-flagellation" comment re women tearing their hair and clawing their faces to express extreme grief: not solely a "middle eastern" - aka arab/semitic/phoenician/etcetc?? - custom, it was/is also familiar amongst us "fellow Indo-Europeans" here in Italy, especially in the central-southern (i.e. historically Italic+Greek+Etruscan) regions and islands, where literary and historical refs. attest its presence since at least early-Roman days, also as practiced by "prefiche" - professional mourners paid by wealthy families to "honour the dead" in funeral processions. And extreme psychological pain and desperation - especially in the case of "catastrophic" bereavement due to murder, terrorism, earthquake .. is still often spontaneously expressed here via loud keening, hair-tearing and face-scratching: when my beloved grandmother died, for an entire night I too found myself wailing, tearing at my hair and digging my nails in my face in agony... the pain was so great, how else could it have found release? :-(

Iraqi Mojo said...

Naj, you may have heard of Vali Nasr, the Iranian American academic who has written a lot about democracy in Iraq and Iran. He wrote the excellent book "Shia Revival". I have transcribed a few parts, and I encourage anybody interested in the topic to buy his book. He sheds some light on fundamentalist influences in Iraq before 2003: Salafi ties to Iraq before 2003.

Anand said...

I haven't gotten through all the comments, but I noticed this one: "I hope you are not one of those who thinks America has brought democracy to Iraq? Because, I hope the history of the past century has made it abundantly clear that "democracy" is something that grows bottom-up; and America has never been able to install democracy ANYWHERE!"

Historically, aren't many democracies aided by outside powers? Didn't French, Spanish and Dutch blood and treasure liberate America from Britain in 1775-1783? One example that supports your hypothesis is America's liberation of Mexico from French occupation in 1867. Unfortunately that time, Mexico lapsed into a dictatorship. American, French, British, allied occupation of Germany and Italy lead to two free democracies. US occupations of Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, lead to free democracies.

The Indian invasion and occupation of Bangladesh in 1971 lead to a free democracy. So did the UN lead occupation of Kosovo, Bosnia, and East Timur.

In summary, foreign powers sometimes help and sometimes hinder countries from transforming themselves into free democracies.

Anand said...

Naj, forgive me for disagreeing on Jundullah with you. Jundullah has close links with Sipah e Sahaba and Lashkar e Jhanvi. Both the later groups declared Osama Bin Laden to be their supreme leader in 1998/1999. These three groups (including Jundullah) are anti Shiite wackos who love to mass murder Pakistan, Afghan and Iranian shiites. The whole world should jointly dismantle them.

Anonymous said...

Its not clear these acts done by The suicide bombers or remote act.

But the proxy government keep telling this and that.

The forgotten the the occupier done far worse that this act for the last 6yers there million Iraqi killed each time we here it's The suicide bombers?

The on act one month before the driver left the truck and run from it when the police commander suspected him and called in the radio to stop the truck coming to them soon!!!


So this tells its not stupid planner behind them and diffidently not The suicide bombers.


The cleaning lady picked up her pail of dirty water and mop and began to walk across the floor.
'What 'bombers' are you talking about'?

The elderly lady looked back.


'The ones who want to destroy an ancient thriving civilization, the barbarians who bombed hospitals, schools, department stores, markets, and who try to turn our diverse society of Sunni, Shia, Chaldean Christian, Jews, Palestinians, Kurds, Jordanians, Syrians and Iranians into warring tribes. My son was a Christian. He worked for a Muslim, who traded with Kurds and studied under a secular professor in the University. He was murdered at a check point. We were at the crossroads of civilizations between Europe and Asia. Now we are at the crossroads between civilization and barbarism. The enemies of freedom always underestimate their adversaries.'

At first Andy was astonished. 'A cleaning lady improvised that narrative without any notes. She must have been university educated at some point. Then again she gave the wrong impression about whose side she's on.'
'I had better edit this a bit before I send it to London - just to make its slant clearer.'
Next days' return mail: 'Andy, Get off the hash. That's Livingston talking about London, not some old Arab cleaning lady. You are interviewing the wrong people in the wrong places.'

Naj said...

Parvati,

re grieving; yes I agree. And I think at some point, our research and science is going to enable us understand the crux of our emotional interactions with environment and thereafter politics.

Anonymous,

That's a nice anecdote.

Anand
American, French, British, allied occupation of Germany and Italy lead to two free democracies.

I have two wonderful friends here, Parvati and German, who can peraps best comment on this and I LOVE to hear their input.

However, from my understanding; what America BROUGHT to germany was 1) Berlin Wall 2)Marshal program aided at installing "capitalism" to counter the communist threat spreading into western europe and elsewhere. Given that the German society whole heartedly embraced it, then my theory is again proven! I am not so sure about Italy! Parvati you comment on that please.

However, I like to draw attention to my friend German's comment, in support of my argument that western "success" in Germany was NOT a testament to democracy installation:

He stated that he was barred from ever teaching for distributing some lefty leaflets ... I hardly call that democracy! Had Germany become a perfect democracy after falling to Russians and being in the hands of the allies; then why did it react in terrorism in the 70s?!

Might we argue that democracy didn't come to Germany before the wall fell?

Whenever you want to praise someone for liberating someone else; FIRST answer: what was their geo-economical gains from it; be it Americans, Spanish, Iranians (as they claim to be supporting Palestine) and etc.

Mojo

I think the sunni-shiite issues outside of Iran are different; and I think I agree with the cleaner lady of Anonymous' quotation that "external" interests are the ones who fan the flames of sectarian "reawakenings", wherever they may be!

I DO fear that the way Ahmadinejad an dhis IRGC are running Iran, we are RISKING further radicalization of initially nationalist movements like jundollah; turning into religious (and unholy) alliance with AQ, Taliban and etc.

I also understand, as you have noted, and also I pointed out in my earlier comments, that Saudi arabia plays a very critical and hypocritical role in all this. You did hear about the all-about-Saddam Saudi funded TV station?

Anand,
By the way, let's remember that America helped Taliban "liberate" Afghanistan from Russians as well.

German said...

I) @ dear folks, dear friends

A very serious comment in the form of an adequate literary, poetic reaction

"132 killed, 520 injured ...
In a bombing in Baghdad
In one day
In one second
...
...
freedom
to bomb
..."

cannot really and ought not to lead everyone / us to think,
that either our host's Naj's natural task is to solve the problems of the current region with a world-moving crisis, called Middle-East
or that her taks is at least is to agree to any view expressed here.

In particular with a view to the long history of this conflict, which some even date back to the age of the crusades and pre-crusades times! [- at least according to the argumentation of the bombers in Spain, going back to 700 AD - ].
It's very consolatory and reassuring, that at least our Italian friend Parvati doesn't express any territorial claims covering the countries now existing on the territory of the former Roman Empire! And what about the Celts ? And what about the claims of different teutonic tribes ? And what about the claims of the Vikings, today Denmark, Norway, Sweden ? - just limiting myself to Europe - PLEASE !!!!

The expectations mentioned above: Perhaps a task for fictional characters like "BATMAN" or rather/more correct "BATWOMAN". the emphasis is on "fictíonal".

Now you/we are expecting to agree on any detail of European pre-war-, war- and post-war development [WWII].

Who of you/us is Columbus to make an egg stand on its tip or Alexander to "untie the Gordian knot" the way he did?
Nobody of us is, even naj isn't.


That is simply expected too much from any human being still living here on earth. I therefore doubt that these vehement reactions, though understandable, are commensurate with Naj's poetic text (expressing her grief) they are referring to - that's at least as I feel - .

Please "peace" !!!



II) Dear Naj,

I will try to react to the titanic issue(s) addressed, as far as the German question is concerned, but it will take some time, of course -(reason: see above).

[I don't envy you]

German

Naj said...

German! :))

Oh no?? I cannot solve the probmelms of the world? I am now in existentialist crisis; I so was aiming to do just that :)

German,

I don't feel any of the commentators above are attacking me. I think many raise interesting points. And there are some who just insist on THEIR misunderstandings; e.g. Kellie (who behaves like this everywhere, actually.)

I am very amused that this little, as what you correctly identified "emotional outburst" has spawned such great debate. I wish I had time to pay closer attention to it.

I think everyone here is speaking a little bit of truth; what is important is if we all accept that there is a little bit of truth in what we say.

So, this is not a war zone, German, we are in no fight to need to make peace. And I particulalry appreciate Mojo's perspective--in fact I agree with it.

I ALSO highly apreciate Anonymous' quotation.

And of course, you and Parvati have a very great understanding of where fascism stems from and so your inputs are always welcome. I think, Italy in particular can serve as a great model for us Iranians to grapple with our own encounter with modernity--and also to recognize and learn from the Italian experience the limitations that a RICH and ancient history and tradition introduces.

Anyways, this has been fun ... and I feel privileged :) So you may as well envy me! lol

German said...

Dear Naj,

As I mentioned some (?) hours ago:
- again - :
I like your answer !!

Or expressed- again - in the way the Germans often formulate (at least in some films):

CORRECT!


German

Parvati said...

"Italy in particular can serve as a great model for us Iranians to grapple with our own encounter with modernity--and also to recognize and learn from the Italian experience the limitations that a RICH and ancient history and tradition introduces."

Dear dear Naj - initial reaction to your post: may Heaven protect Iran from taking Italy as a model!!! I feel our peoples have a great many things in common, especially in the talents virtues and sensibilities department.. but can only hope Iranians are immune from our vices: Italy's administrative ineptitude, endemic corruption, pervasive every-day "amoral familism" i.e. mass-level talent for clientele-networking and corners-cutting with law-elusive intent... + acutely political factionalism, no less acute secretive intrigue-proneness both "velvety" (to use your own charming adjective) and chain-murderish or worse - all of which IMHO fall in one way or another into the "perverse misuse of intellect" category - are not exactly a source of national pride here! :-(

Have to go now - will be back later with a more analytical-type post on 1) the Italian form of fascism and how come it arose and 2) Italy's post-WW2 pseudo-democracy aka "limited sovereignty" within NATO ... and how come our post Berlin-Wall high hopes progressively slumped into ... our present "berlusconist" system aka slimy corrupt mafia-riddled pseudo-caesarist pseudo-populist mess - with accompanying status as laughing-stock of Europe. :-(
...

To German - thanks for compliments, reciprocated and very much appreciated! However, not entirely deserved: some "irredentist" emotions still linger - certainly not about full-extent Roman-empire borders but about far more recent, strictly-Italian territorial losses. In a nutshell, hard for any historically-conscious Italian to avoid being still somewhat bitter about the way Italy-and-Italians were screwed by "greater powers" out of certain historically-Italian AND Italian-populated territories - most painful being loss of Istria and upper Dalmatian coastal strip on the Adriatic side, older wounds being loss of Corsica + area from current It. border up to Nice on the other. Big national self-censorship "muffler" imposed after WW2 to stop these issues RE-exploding - for obvious too-late-now plus lesser-evil reasons .. with which I must sadly agree.

Naj said...

Parvati,

Iran is already (and has BEEN before the revolution and EVEN before Ahmadinejad) suffering:
"administrative ineptitude, endemic corruption, pervasive every-day "amoral familism" i.e. mass-level talent for clientele-networking and corners-cutting with law-elusive intent... + acutely political factionalism, no less acute secretive intrigue-proneness both "velvety" (to use your own charming adjective) and chain-murderish or worse - all of which IMHO fall in one way or another into the "perverse misuse of intellect" category -

I said use Italy as a MODEL to grapple with; not to copy ;)

Italy raises this question: why is it not "fixable" like say Germany was? Is is possible to "fix" ancient societies; WITHOUT stripping them of their charm?!

That is the question!

Parvati said...

Eeeeek Naj, you've just FORMALLY confirmed the darker side of my theory/suspicions re how-come Italians and Iranians are so quick to "empathize" - no wonder we get on so well!

"Is is possible to "fix" ancient societies; WITHOUT stripping them of their charm?!"

Great question, THE question! But not only "charm" is at stake - goes far deeper than that - "soul"??? = as linked to wellsprings of creativity, artistry + own-particular forms of joyfulness and melancholy - all inextricably mixed up together!

Naj said...

goes far deeper than that - "soul"??? = as linked to wellsprings of creativity, artistry + own-particular forms of joyfulness and melancholy - all inextricably mixed up together!

BINGO!!

So my solution is; let's not "FIX" us and turn all of us into "rational" mush ... let us be! We are kind of having fun--despite all nagging!

Parvati said...

Re the Italian-history "how come" questions - 1)fascism 2)post-war "limited sovereignty" and 3)post-Wall rise of Berlusconi - I promised to write about several posts higher up, as they're certainly kinda-fascinating but not all that simple to answer - plus way off-topic in relation to the main subject of this thread, which has already accumulated over 80 passionate comments (!!!) - I've decided to dedicate a new post to them on my own blog, all-too-appropriately named "Dark Mirror" - I'll send you a message when it's ready.

Naj said...

Parvati; you're my third chapion of the day!

After "I love you New York"

and after a book of poems a friend of mine has published and sent for me from Iran.

The order is ONLY TEMPORAL! :)

Thank you!

German said...

Dear Naj,

having come across some comments on Pedestrian's blog by some readers/visitors - comments dealing with the Israel-Palestine questions -

it's dawning on me that you are right as to your complaint about the way of argumentation by "Kellie". "Kellie" doesn't seem to take serious notice of arguments which don't fit his preconceived picture of and his unshakeable take on certain situations or states of affairs that are highly complex and that need a complex, not biased and reproachful view. Comments by someone (posing as or) feeling insulted or misunderstood is not necessarily a valid argument.

I am sorry for noticing that after only a couple of days of delay.

Excuse me for being slow on the uptake.

German